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Messages - Mike S.

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121
Pond Chat / Re: Jongkolnee growing.
« on: July 21, 2011, 01:37:40 PM »
I'm hoping to see a beautiful bloom, too!

But no other tropical of mine has had this particular problem. And I'm only guessing about the water depth being the problem. But, a little more depth certainly won't hurt, so it's worth a try.

I'll give it two more buds to produce a bloom. If that fails, I will repot into a 2 1/2 gallon pot, after the larger pond is ready next week.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

122
Pond Chat / Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« on: July 21, 2011, 01:32:21 PM »
I think what you are going to find is that the type of growing media, from "yard dirt," to a commercial waterlily potting mix is really not all that important given the excellent fertilizers now available.

The real culprit in the formation of what is probably hydrogen sulfide inside the pot. This is due to not only whatever organics are in the soil, but also from the roots of the plant that have reached the bottom of the pont and died in a very much anaerobic environment. Did the smell from the pot remind you of rotten eggs? That would be hydrogen sulfide and it is quite toxic to fish.

In an article in the WGI Online Journal, Vol. 1, Number 3, August 2006, Rich Sacher wrote an article on poting and fetilizing waterlilies. To avoid the problem of a "dead space" in the bottom of the pot, he advocates cutting slits in the sides of the pot, right near the bottom, with a knife.

Yes, roots will eventually sneak out thru these slits, but that really is not a problem. Fish might eat them, but they'll just grow more. I've yet to see any evidence of fertilizer leaching out of those slits, as my unfiltered ponds tend to be quite clear. I just put a layer of dirt in the pot and make sure it comes up over the top of the slits, and then add my granular fertilizer inside that "dirt ring." The slits are only about 3/4 of an inch up the side of the pot, the width of the knife I cut them with.

The slits do allow for some gas exchange, theoretically keeping the soil in the pot from going completely anaerobic. I have been following Mr. Sacher's advice this year and so far, it all seems to work just like he says. My water still stays clear and I've seen no gas build up in the pots with the slits, unlike what I find in the smaller plastic cups I'm using on some plants.

Those cups, so far mostly 18oz ones, all seem to to have the soil in them kind of "dome up" after the plant has been growing a while. If I bounce the cup off the bottom of the pond, a lot of tiny bubble come out of the dirt, and it is a little stinky. In the future, I'll be putting a couple of small knife slits near the bottom of these, as well.

I also remember in the past when repotting plants in everything from one gallon to ten gallon pots, when it came time to repot, the oder sometimes got overpowering. That is, except in the pots that came with holes in them. Tried lining some of those with plastic bags. It worked, and they were smelly when repoting. Others, I used old landscape cloth to keep the soil from coming out the rather large, round holes. These grew just as well as the others, but never developed that smell.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

123
Pond Chat / Re: Jongkolnee growing.
« on: July 21, 2011, 12:48:36 PM »
The second bloom on the Jongkolnee has also failed to bloom. Just as seen in the last picture, it looks like the stem could not support the weight as it grew and it laid over. It did try to curve up at the bud end, but the bud was in the water too long.

Here is what it looked like on it's third day at the surface. Looks like it tried to open, but had already started to decompose.



I did cut the first one open and it looked like it had started to rot on the inside, much as I suspect this one did.

My current thought on this is that the water is just too shallow for this plant. I do not think this problem is related to the pot size. Since the last picture was taken, I've moved it into one of my patio ponds for deeper wate, after shuffling some plants around. It's too crowded in there for the Jongkolnee, but next week I'll have an 8X8 pond for it, ready to go. There is another bud started down at the crown.

Then we'll see what happens!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

124
Where Oleander is planted roadside in Florida, it comes with a warning sign that say that should you burn it, the smoke is toxic.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

125
Pond Chat / Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« on: July 19, 2011, 08:54:28 PM »
If I were growing waterlilies for my own collection, I'd be planting more like you are.  In fact, I'd not plant any waterlilies in the one gallon squat pots, I'd be looking for something at least twice as wide as it is deep and. 2 1/2 to 3 gallons would be the smallest container I'd use. Of course, my little 4x8 patio ponds would be way too small.

Most every thing I'm doing now is geared towards producing quantities of waterlilies in a small space and getting them quickly up to a reasonable size and very healthy,for sales.

Different methods for different goals.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

126
Pond Chat / Re: Update on Matt/Great news!
« on: July 19, 2011, 12:20:28 PM »
Getting off Chemo for any length of time is cause for a celebration.
Let it commence!   :clap:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

127
Pond Chat / Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« on: July 19, 2011, 08:29:36 AM »
Got the Pond Pearls in.

As I said earlier, when I placed the order, the on-line info was not available. It is there now. What is says on-line differs a little from the print material that came with the fertilizer, not by much. On-line says it is 15-10-10, the printed version call is 15-10-12. I'm sure that will be cleared up over time.

Also, the on-line says it can be used "for the enitre growing season (6-9 months)", where the print material says, "5-6 Month Continuous Feeding." Again, not quite the same, but not too different. Any any event, the local weather conditons will vary enough to cover that difference due to the temp release components.

From the on-line, printed, and a telephone conversation, the differences between Nutricote, sold as Red Devil plant food, is that the Nutricote is pretty much all temperature released. With either, a temperature drop such as the end of the growing season, will cause the fertilzers to stop releasing the nutrients. And that is a helpful feature.

But Nutricote does take time, almost a month, before it starts releasing nutrients. Because of this, you need to add something else, such as a conventional pond tab, when planting. Pond Pearls is made up of many different sizes and colors of prills. These different prills have different binders and coatings. Some are primarily temperature release, others are mainly water released, and it seems that the different coatings mean some will release at different times throughout the growing season.  Enough of it will release right away, so you do not need to use a pond tab during the initial planting. Here is a quote from the on-line material that was echoed in the phone call:

"Designed to promote strong green growth and rooting during the initial months of feeding; followed by, the remaining months of long-lasting blooms."

It goes on to say, "Repeat feeding application with AgSafe Aquatic-Tabs® or Aquatic-Spikes™ next season." But it seems to me that "next season," you will likely be re-potting anyway, possibly in a larger pot, you should be able to use the Pond Pearls again.

So, you need a tab to start a plant with Nutricote (Red Devil,) and from the print material, "After Pond-Pearls Application: Promote quick blooming using Aquatic-Tabs." This is not mentioned in the on-line material. But from the phone call, you should be able to get pretty good results over a growing season, with the Pond Pearls alone.

I don't know. But I do have plenty of the Pond Pearls and Nutricote on hand, along with my pond tabs, and plenty of plants to be planted. So, I'll have to keep some notes and decide just which way I'm going to go. I'll post what happens, either way. But this will take a while.

It was asked somewhere above about the size pots I'm using. I don't think I covered that!

Since I tend to experiment as I go, this year I'm generally starting with two of each variety. Especailly with tropicals, I plant one in a 1 gallon squat pot. This allows most all of them to reach a pretty good size, sometimes too big for the majority of my ponds which are 4X8 feet, about 2 feet deep. Also, it seems to me that the one gallon pot is probably the most common size used in ponds across the country.

The second plant is planted in a much smaller pot, some in 4 inch Lerio pots, some in 18 oz plastic cups, and some in 8 or nine ounce "Dixie Cups," ala the "Sean's Bonsai Method." (Sean, you really should trademark that!" These are planted this way for two reasons. One is to promote tuber production for next year's crop, the other reason is that plants grown in them grow large enough for fairly good sized pads, but not usually quite a large as the gallon pot plants, and they will still produce blooms, again not usually quite the size of the larger potted plants. Plants from the cups are a nice size for shipping as bare-root waterlilies. And you can grow a surprising number of them in smaller grow-out ponds.

I'm currently trying out small, rectangular food storage containers for the new hardy waterlilies. I hope to apply the same "Bonsai" techinques to produce a larger number of them in a small space, while the shape of the container will allow for good horizontal rhizome growth. And so far, so good!

In the past, I used 8 oz. desert cups for starting "plantlets," 1 gallon squat pots for initial grow-outs of those plants, and later, I planted many in Lerio's 2 1/2 gallon pots and many others in the Lerio 10 gallon pots. The latter produced some impressive waterlilies. My original mentor kept at least one each of his most common varieties in several 27 foot diameter ponds, each potten in a large pot made from half of a 50 gallon plastic drum. These made for some of the largest "non-Victoria" waterlilies I've ever seen. He had some slots cut in the top of those large pots for nylon webbing, as he used a digging attachment on his tractor to lift them in and out the pond for maintanance. (I won't be going that far!"

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

128
Pond Chat / Re: Vavips from pads not worth it?
« on: July 17, 2011, 02:27:38 AM »
By the way, it may drive many a pond keeper to distraction, but the little pool in the picture at the this thread has now gone through its "cycle " and is now quite clear again.  No water changes,  no chemistry, no filtration, no aeration,nothing.  All I do is remove spent pads and blooms as they drop. All this in full Florida sun.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

129
Pond Chat / Re: Anyone know who pondmegastore.com is?
« on: July 16, 2011, 10:10:02 PM »
If a store is willing to fix a problem from "5 or 6 years" ago,  then that would be going the extra mile!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

130
Pond Chat / Re: One beautiful lily..
« on: July 16, 2011, 01:18:51 PM »
If you slip a small plastic bag over it and use a bread tie to close it, you then would wait for it to swell and then burst. Then you remove it and collect the seeds, plant them and find out if they are viable. You would likely find that plants that grow from this have more diversity in them than you might expect.

There is a lot of very good info on this in the growing hybrids section of the Forum.

Posting from a mobile phone is rather taxing, compared to doing it from the old desktop!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

131
Pond Chat / Re: Anyone know who pondmegastore.com is?
« on: July 16, 2011, 01:06:08 PM »
Sounds like someone is interested in keeping a customer happy. A *good* thing!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

132
Pond Chat / Re: Vavips from pads not worth it?
« on: July 16, 2011, 01:02:24 PM »
Sean, I seem to learn something every time you post. Thanks!

I have noticed that when I delay in potting a viviporous start, it does begin making its own tuber, just as you say. I think that the water it is floating in does need to have little,if any, nutrients in it for this to happen. It does sound counter-intuitive, but supplying any fertilizer would likely keep this from happening.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL.

133
Pond Chat / Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« on: July 16, 2011, 12:49:19 PM »
I don’t know enough about it yet to say which formula works best for waterlilies, but most fertilizers developed specifically for them seem to fall in a fairly narrow range. I think that the different results people get is probably due to differences in their planting soils. As far as I know, Pond Pearls is the only one of its type that was actually designed for aquatic plants. I'd say that its once a year application is its main selling point and that should be a very good one.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

134
Pond Chat / Re: One beautiful lily..
« on: July 16, 2011, 12:33:44 PM »
More than likely, all of the blooms that coil have been pollenated. If not by insects, then they've self-pollenated. The flower's own pollen can do it, rather than from another flower.  That's one of the things to guard against when making a hybrid.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

135
Pond Chat / Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« on: July 15, 2011, 01:13:12 PM »
Just got off the phone with Steve Tiger (?I think that's what he said?) of AgSafe. Their new Pond Pearls is what I'll be trying next. Sounds better than the Nutricote (Red Devil) that I've been using and do like. The Pond Pearls might be even better.

Red Devil is sold as a terrestrial fertilizer, even though it is a temp released product that has the 13-13-13 mix, same as my pond tabs. But the new one Pond Pearls, is time released, with pellets that release over time when in water, and others that are temperature released. There is also some in the mix that release right away, so there's no need to use the "Pearls" and tabs, like you do with the Red Devil.

Should be able to do a nice, once a year dose with this stuff. I will try it for the rest of year and if I like it, I'll likely be selling it when I do open for biz.

Did I say something about "no secrets?" I believe I did. Here is where I found it: http://gardenlink.com/agsafepondpearlsbag10.aspx

Hope that link is OK to post! If not, I imagine it will be gone soon. (Hopefully, not me along with it!)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

136
Pond Chat / Re: Midnight
« on: July 14, 2011, 06:21:30 PM »
Looking good!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

137
Pond Chat / Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« on: July 14, 2011, 06:11:36 PM »
Prills, little hard pellets of fertilizer. To be more specific, I'm talking about Red Dynamite Plant Food, which is a brand name for Nutricote Type 270, 13x13x13 with Micronutrients. What is different about this stuff is that it is tempureature released, rather than simply a water soluable one like other granular ones on the market.

The "270" means is will supply the fertilizer for 270 days, when those days produce target temps in the pot. There is also a "360" version which means you can probably go for 2 years without addtional fertilizer, when your growing season is short enough for the lower temps to shut down the release.

Before I manage to "mispeak myself," There is an article on this subject written by Steve Stroupe, Volume 4, Number 3, WGI Journal, on-line, Aug, 2009. It's available on the IWGS web site, and pretty sure also on the Water Gardener's International web site.

It does take about 30 days for the Red Dynamite to kick in, so I also use a pond tab to feed the plant until then.

The bottle says to use 3/4 of a cap full for each gallon of soil. I've found that works fairly well for my hardies, but the tropicals seem to need more. Now, I'm using  a full cap full for the tropicals and might go higher in the future.

Just so there's no confusion, Osmocote and Nutricote are not the same thing.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

138
Pond Chat / Re: more lilies
« on: July 14, 2011, 03:06:50 PM »
Is there no end to it?

I certainly hope NOT!

Very nice pics!!!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

139
Pond Chat / Re: Mike here is my jongkolnee
« on: July 14, 2011, 02:57:57 PM »
Looks healthy to me!

As far as I know, the only "secrets" to this one is plenty of sun and room to spread. This advice given by Primlarp, on her Face Book page.

I think many may start them too early when water temps drop down too far at night and the plant just refuses to grow. Just a guess on my part, but it comes from watching mine grow during the odd-ball weather in my area, lately. From Primlarp's remarks, I also think that this one might not bloom if it "feels" crowded. So far, mine have not spread beyond a total of six feet. At the moment, I can only provide a maximum of 8 feet, that being the diameter of their kiddie pool. Hope it is enough.

Now for the really hard part.

Sit back and wait!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

140
Nice to know there are others out there! And this Forum looks like a magnet for those of us who tend more towards obsessions rather than simple hobbies.  {:-P;;

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

141
Pond Chat / Re: Vavips from pads not worth it?
« on: July 14, 2011, 02:49:07 PM »
I understand your perspective. And I have to say, you may be right. But, I haven't found that old thread yet and now suspect it was probably on another forum.

The need to make a sale is understood. Heck, I hope to have my store on-line next year. But for me the need for a sale is not so great where I would not provide accurate information on the plants that I will sell. There are no real secrets to growing and maintaining waterlilies. Just things one hasn't learned yet. I do consider myself to be a "grower," as I did do some wholesale locally, a number of years ago and was sucessfull at it.

Over the years I've been out of it, I've forgotten quite a bit, I'm afraid. But it does come back as you're doing it, plus all the great resources on the Internet, which has grown considerably over the years. This very Forum is an excellent resource!

I'm building my web site at the moment, along with my "business" in the back yard. One thing I will be adding to the web site is a "how to" section where absolutely NO secrets will be kept. I already have a free download for anyone who wants to build a patio pond like mine.

My links page tells exactly where I get a lot of my methods and growing "secrets."

I can tell I'm starting to "rant" again, so I'll get off it and move on. But again, thanks for the reply!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL


142
Pond Chat / Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« on: July 14, 2011, 02:21:17 PM »
I think what you are seeing, at least in the Arc-en-ciel picture is the builder's sand I top the pots with. I still do that, but I'm no longer convinced its actually required. More out of habit, than anything else.

Since my yard dirt is more sand than anything else, I've been mixing it with different bagged topsoils. Different ones, because I was trying to find one good brand. Looks to me like most are not really soil, or what I'd call "dirt," anyway, but mostly poorly composted mulch. About half of it will float to the top when submerged. What I had been hoping for would probably be described as garden loam.

Then I found the cheapest stuff, that looked more like "dirt" to me at Walmart. It is sold as being "good for filling holes and leveling low areas." The name of it is Earthgrow. About $1.50 a 40lb bag. I like it, nothing floats to the top, no chemistry added I might not want, and is "dirt cheap!" In the pot, it feels kind of heavy, as if it had some clay in it, but I wouldn't bet on it being there. It just has the consistancy I like. This is what I now use, right out of the bag, nothing added.

I've experimented around with adding clay, and other things, but for me, this out-of-the-bag stuff works just fine, since I'm using AgSafe tabs and Red Dynomite prills. I'll be trying AgSafe's prills as soon as it gets here. It has been shown many times, that with good fertilizer, you can easily grow waterlilies in pure sand.

One of Perry Slocum's sons told me at a siminar one time, that "If it will grow grass, it will grow waterlilies." He was talking at the time about mixing Florida yard dirt, mostly sand, with any bagged topsoil. He went by color, looking for a mid-scale gray.

Looks like I might have over-explained something again!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

143
Wakin, Shubunkins and Goldfish... / Re: I found Wakin on Ebay
« on: July 14, 2011, 09:36:33 AM »
Nice having the babies, isn't it?  Good for you!

I know some have reservations about fish being sent USPS, but it really wasn't that long ago that the US Mail was just about the only way it was done. (Well, not that long ago to me, anyway.)

Properly packed, 5 days or so is very easily possible. Not so expensive fish would typically be shipped with extras in the bag, to allow for a mortality or two, more expensive ones where shipped with fewer fish in the same size bag, to increase the survial rate. Less fish, more oxygen, fish tend to to very well.

We've been kind of spoiled with overnight shipping these days. (And I'm glad of it!)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

144
Pond Chat / Re: Pond photo from today...
« on: July 14, 2011, 09:27:44 AM »
Interesting approach!

I've heard that talking to your plants can make a difference, but I hadn't considered threatening them. . .

Might have to try that.   :thumbup:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

145
Pond Chat / Re: One beautiful lily..
« on: July 14, 2011, 09:21:50 AM »
What's not to love? Simply fantastic!
Not a lemon in the lot! (Sorry about that!)   ;D

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

146
Pond Chat / Vavips from pads not worth it?
« on: July 14, 2011, 09:19:18 AM »
I spent some time a little while back, looking at older post in various sections of the Forum. Somewhere, I'm not sure which section, I came across a post that suggested that "growers," I'm thinking the poster meant "pros," didn't think that viviporous reproduction was worth the trouble to propagate waterlilies in quantity.

At least, I'm pretty sure it was this Forum, but I'll have to look at the very few other ones i visit.  :redface:

Anyone else recall this thread? I think somewhere in that one it was also said that vavips don't tuber well either, leaving me to wonder just how the grower produced enough plants to sell.

I can see where some vavips don't produce as well as others, but with all the execellent articles on "How To" encourage vaviporous reproduction available, including Sean's, I just don't understand the thoughts expressed in that thread.
Here is a pic of one of my little kiddie pools, quite a few of the plants in it are from vaviporous starts, mostly Daubins and some Panama Pacifics. The latter haven't bloomed yet, but the Daubins are going like gang busters.



The Daubins, bloming well, 3 flowers at once on this one:



And 4 at once on this one!



These Daubins, and even the Panama Pacifics that have yet to bloom, are all showing the little brown nubs on their pads, so they will be available for reproduction, as well. It would be all to easy to get over-run with the things! I have a few more varieties that are viviporous, and will be working at getting some of them started as well, with what I've learned lately.

So, if I can locate the thread I am asking about, I think I'd like to talk to that grower and find out what prompted his comments.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

147
Pond Chat / New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« on: July 14, 2011, 08:52:03 AM »
Even with the bad weather, lots of rain and very little sun, some of my new arivals are blooming.

Here is Arc-en-ciel. I've been told that many like this one for it's pads, but I think the bloom is pretty nice, as well.



Below, King of Siam. Not actually it's first bloom, but still from a rather small plant that is growing rapidly. I'll get another pic when it opens fully and shows it's center.



Last of the new one's for now, Pink Ribbon.



Like the Arc-en-ciel, this bud was on the plant when it got here. It seems to me that buds shipped on hardy waterlilies have a high survival rate. The buds on tropicals do not seem to do quite as well. At least, thats been my experience, so far.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

148
Pond Chat / Re: My aussie pond lilies started from tubers in zone 6
« on: July 13, 2011, 05:04:24 PM »
Very nice!

I do miss not having my Gigantea any more. I'll have to do something about that!
And the first pic worried me, too. At least until I saw the other and realized those were not uninvited guest wading in your ponds.  :teehee:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

149
Pond Chat / Re: Jongkolnee growing.
« on: July 13, 2011, 04:59:23 PM »
Ouch! It never occured to me anyone would want to see a picture of a failed bloom.  :redface:
My bad! Just went out and took one, so here you go.



To the left of the bud, that odd-looking floating thing is just some Elodea floating loose in the pond with a little algea on it. The pond now has a green tint to it. Some of what you see around the waterliles in the back is reflections of nearby trees and bushes. Photo taken late in the evening.

Just to make myself feel better, here is another picture on the little pool next door.



This one was put up a few days ago and most of the plants were just potted, yesterday. All except for the little Red Flare and the one in the center, my other Jongkolnee. This one is in a larger pot.

Don't despair! This pool will go green, soon! And after a couple of weeks, they both will clear up again, first one, then the other about 2 weeks later.

And hopefully, while they are going thru their cycles, I'll have pictures of Jongkolnee blossoms to post!   8)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

150
Pond Chat / Re: Bug question on lilies
« on: July 13, 2011, 10:40:22 AM »
Always nice to hear something is working for someone!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

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