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Messages - Teresa

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1231
Chit Chat / Re: It's for real offical now!
« on: October 09, 2006, 05:10:51 PM »
Gee Tammie . . . that puts you in the same elite group to which I belong . . . . a lawyer's wife!!!

So much fun living thru law school and them studying for the bar . . . . it was a bigger relief for me when he passed the bar than it was for him!!!

Congrats to DH . . . . he deserves it!

1232
I'm so sorry . . . . it would be awful to work on your garden and give the plants tlc only to have someone who doesn't know why they are there come and cut them down.  Have you told him to stop now that he's done the damage?  If not, do so quickly before he does any more damage!!!

1233
Chit Chat / Re: Horror movies
« on: October 06, 2006, 08:06:40 PM »
Oh man!  There ya go!!!  When I first read this thread I thought 'I woudln't vote for any of those . . .'  But the only real horror movie I could think of that scared the bejeezus outa me wasn't an old horror movie. 

Dawn of the Dead was the first really scary movie I remember watching (or trying to watch).  The new one that I thought was too much to watch in one sitting was The Ring - took me weeks to get thru that one!

1234
Pond Chat / Re: What is inversion?
« on: October 06, 2006, 02:32:18 PM »
Ok - last post on this subject and only so that people who are not familiar with the concept of a thermocline can understand what it is and how it works.   Please note that there will NEVER be water that is almost 20 degrees above freezing at the bottom of your pond in winter.  The difference in temperatures could only be that great if the water depth was in the hundreds of feet.

Important points:

- water is densest when it hits 39 degrees - in the summer, warmer water will sit on top of water that is 39 degrees - when the fall rolls around and all the water gets to that temp or below, the 39 degree water falls to the bottom and the water above gets colder and freezes into ice at 32 degrees.

- this does not happen in a garden pond as it is not deep enough.  The water at the bottom will be warmer (if the pond doesn't freeze solid), but not necessarily due to a thermocline and not necessarily as warm as 39 degrees and generally due to the soil's frost depth in your area.

- in the quote below, they are talking about lakes that are 30 meters (90 feet) deep


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermocline

Thermoclines can also be observed in relatively shallow lakes. In colder climates, this leads to a phenomenon called turnover. During the summer, warm water, which is less dense, will sit on top of colder, denser water that sinks to the bottom, with a thermocline separating them. Because the warm water is also exposed to the sun during the day, a stable system exists and very little mixing of warm water and cold water occurs. One result of this stability is that as the summer wears on, there is less and less oxygen below the thermocline, as the water below the thermocline never circulates to the surface. As winter approaches, the temperature of the surface water will also drop until it approaches 4 °C (39 °F), which is the temperature at which water is densest (remember, water expands as it freezes into ice - that expansion actually begins before the freezing point). 4 °C is, generally speaking, the temperature of the water below a thermocline. When the entire body of water is at or close to 4 °C, 'fall turnover' begins - the thermocline disappears, (or, to say a different way, it reaches the surface) and the water from the bottom of the lake can mix freely with the water from the top. This process is aided by wind or any other process that agitates the water.
As the temperature continues to drop, in those locations where it does, the water on the surface begins to get cold enough to freeze and the lake begins to ice over. A new thermocline develops where the densest water (4 °C) sinks to the bottom, and the less dense water (water that is approaching the freezing point) rises to the top. Once this new stratification establishes itself, it lasts until the water warms enough for the 'spring turnover,' which occurs after the ice melts and the surface water temperature rises to 4 °C.
Waves can occur on the thermocline, causing the depth of the thermocline as measured at a single point to oscillate (usually as a form of seiche). Alternately the waves may be induced by flow over a raised bottom, producing a thermocline wave which does not change with time, but varies in depth as one moves into or against the flow.


And Finally . . . . . another quote:

Depending on the geographical location, the thermocline depth ranges from about 50m to 1000m.

1235
Pond Chat / Re: Well it's finally bloomed...
« on: October 06, 2006, 01:55:41 PM »
It's very pretty . . . . was it worth the wait, do you think?

1236
Chit Chat / Re: Hello Everyone
« on: October 06, 2006, 12:57:39 PM »
Welcome Back!  I was wondering where you went and if you'd be back . . . .

1237
Pond Chat / Re: What is inversion?
« on: October 06, 2006, 12:56:02 PM »
Ah, the old warm layer on the bottom of the pond debate, I have read and been involved in a few of these over in the GW forums.
The only thing I know for certain about all that is that there is some misconceptions floating around about the topic.
My own personal view is that it is good to circulate the water in a frozen pond in the winter, and yes, even water close to the bottom of the pond.
Here is why I have come to believe that. First of all, who says fish need to stay warm under the ice? Most fish need to be cold during their winter dormancy (I'm talking gold fish and koi), if they warm up too much  under the ice (for whatever reason) they will likely get sick and die. Of course you don't want them to freeze either, but in a large pond that isn't likely to happen. Most people agree, a uniform water temperature is always best under any conditions, winter or summer. Any time fish get exposed to any significant water temperature extremes it is hard on them, so if there was a warm/cold layer in your pond it would be likely your fish would be swimming from one layer to another and at risk of getting temperature stressed.
Another point is oxygen and ammonia. If there was a warm layer at the bottom of the pond where fish hang out it makes sense that that is where the oxygen levels would be depleted first and ammonia levels would rise highest, also not good for fish.
Usually when there is fish kill in a ponds or lakes, it is because of a lack of oxygen, NOT because the water was too cold at the bottom of the pond or lake where the fish were suppose to be hanging out.
I would like to give further evidence to support my view, but I 'm off to work now.
Have a great day everyone.


Mucky -
First of all, most of our ponds are not big enough or deep enough to have an actual inversion. 

Second, the water at the bottom of the pond will never be more than a few degrees warmer, and so will never be 'warm'.  The fish will not be warm, will not come out of dormancy, will not get sick and die as the parasites/bacteria that might attack them and make them sick won't come out of dormancy till the water warms significantly in spring.  And they won't be exposed to dramatical differences in temperature because we are only talking a couple of degrees at best.

Third, the oxygen will not be depleted in the lower water because it is still quite cold and cold water holds oxygen much better than warm water does.  40 degree water is cold - if you don't believe me, stick your foot in it.  Toxic waste gasses will build up under an ice cover, and fish might die, but that doesn't mean there isn't also oxygen disolved in the water.

Lastly, it's a fact that moving water can be supercooled to lower than 32 degrees without forming ice crystals . . . . fish may not be so lucky if they are swimming in that same water.  Have you ever seen streams running thru snow covered mountains - some even with ice on the surface or edges?  The water in those streams is often below 30 degrees but not ice because it's moving too fast for the molecules to stick together.


1238
Pond Chat / Re: What is inversion?
« on: October 06, 2006, 08:05:02 AM »
Not only is Craig right on target about how this works, he's right on target about the temps (you might find the very bottom water at just above 40, but you will never, ever get to 50 unless you are in the ocean).  And you'd have to have quite a lot of water for inversion to happen tho the water on the bottom of a good sized garden pond is usually warmer in winter than that on the top.

As for circulating it to keep it all warm, that won't work.  Moving water freezes at a much lower temperature than still water (something like 28 degrees as I recall, but don't quote me on that, look it up).  That means that if you start moving the water around, it will more than likely all go below freezing instead of all getting warmer.

I certainly would NOT try to keep dormant tropical water lily tubers at the bottom of any garden pond unless you don't care if they stay dormant permanently.

1239
Chit Chat / Re: HAPPY BIRTHDAY ESTHER!!
« on: October 06, 2006, 07:57:52 AM »
Missed this one too,


Belated Happy Birthday!

1240
Chit Chat / Re: Happy Birthday Scott, aka PondmaninFL
« on: October 06, 2006, 07:55:21 AM »
Coupla days late & a coupla dollars short, but . . . .



Belated Happy Birthday!

1241
Chit Chat / Re: Take a look at all these new pets!
« on: October 06, 2006, 07:53:49 AM »
Wow!  You are a brave woman.  The kittens are adorable.  Good luck to you and your daughter!

1242
Chit Chat / Re: Special Gift
« on: October 06, 2006, 07:52:56 AM »
I spent last night using steel wool to clean up some of the old stainless steel double points . . . . there are quite a few of them.  Some of them have some kind of rough spots that I'm not sure how to get rid of, so they may not all be usable.  The bone hooks are lovely.  Going to have to make something with the wooden one . . . .

1243
So glad it's something that can get better . . . . IF you do as you're told.  Now, take it easy!!!

1244
Pond Chat / Re: My sad Lotus
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:28:28 PM »
I know, it's still to warm here and you're warmer than me.  Wait till that baby has gone dormant.  But we trade lotus tubers in the spring, not the fall (tho either time is ok . . . .)

1245
Chit Chat / Special Gift
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:22:49 PM »
I went to visit Mom & Dad today.  Ended up helping her clean out her yarn stash - she's a knitter from way back and has lots and lots of yarn.  My craziest sister was up there last week and made a total mess of things, including losing the bills mom needed to pay by Monday and either losing or stealing her pain pills.  We found the bills today while cleaning the mess up, but the pain pills still seem to be missing.  This sister's idea of cleaning up is to take everything and randomly stuff it all in those plastic grocery bags and move it to somewhere it won't be as readily seen . . . . and pile it up there till that place is full.  So Mom's knitting room was a disaster.

Anyway, we got the yarn all cleaned up and in plastic bins and Mom was going thru old knitting needles and crochet hooks.  She came across one that her father, my grandfather, the carpenter had carved for his new bride when they were very young.  She gave that to me along with several bone crochet hooks that also belonged to my grandmother and a bunch of steel knitting needles that also belonged to my grandmother.  They are all special, but the hand carved crochet hook is beautiful and very very special.

1246
Chit Chat / Re: Another visit to the Huntington
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:18:02 PM »
Looks like it's going to be spectacular when it's finished!  What is the Library?

1247
Pond Chat / Re: Building a Lotus Bog questions...
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:11:53 PM »
Ok - lotus bog . . . . . they don't care what shape it is or how wide at the narrowest point and that sounds plenty big to me.  Just dig down about 18" (or however deep you want), line it, fill it with dirt and plant those tubers.  The water above the crown can be much deeper than 2" . . . . in the wild they grow as far as 3' underwater . . . . and I bet Joyce has some growing deeper than that in her pond at work.  I always grew mine with at least 8" of water over the crown because then I could forget to water for quite a while before the dirt got dry.  (Would have gone deeper but they only make pots soooo deep.)

I don't know what zone you are in, but my guess is that the lotus in pots even halfway in the ground will be just fine.  As long as the tuber doesn't freeze solid, they should be ok.

1248
Pond Chat / Re: Golden Club - Leanne or......?
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:08:13 PM »
You're welcome emm.  It should do fine in a bog, but I would contain the roots unless you want them everywhere (think that's how they get enough nutrients in the peat bog where they are native). 

If you want to keep the number of pots to a minimum, try planting multiple plants together.  I like to put forget-me-nots around the golden club or creeping jenny or something else with shallow roots.  And I put arrowhead in with cardinal flower.  And anything goes around a taro . . . .

1249
Pond Chat / Re: My sad Lotus
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:05:52 PM »
Um, I meant store the tubers in wet dirt till trading time in the SPRING.  I was just bone tired this afternoon, sorry.

1250
Pond Chat / Re: Finished winterizing...
« on: October 04, 2006, 06:03:52 PM »
My ice actually got almost 1/4 inch thick once and it covered most of the pond for a day or two.  That was a really hard winter tho . . . . I even had to turn the falls off (dunno why, just had to do it).

1251
Chit Chat / Re: Please try...
« on: October 04, 2006, 05:15:22 PM »
We have Panera here and I'm spending the day tomorrow with a dear friend (Spent today taking care of Mom & Dad, yesterday doing laundry, Monday waiting on calls from doctors, it's MY turn).  We'll go to the mall 1/3 mile from here and have some in your honor!  I'll even toast you with a bit of coffee.

Then I'm hitting my favorite clothing store and getting a new pair of jeans . . . and maybe a sweater.

1252
Pond Chat / Re: My sad Lotus
« on: October 04, 2006, 01:07:32 PM »
If it's not dormant, it's too early.  I'd suggest you put a little dirt in the bottom of the container, dump the root mass in there and put some more dirt on top.  Then fill it with water and leave it sit till it goes dormant.  Leave it where it will get colder faster . . . be that out of or in the pond.  Then as soon as that sucker looses all it's leaves, yank it up, and divide it.  Plant your tuber properly for next year and store the rest in a pot of wet dirt in a cold place till trading time in the fall.

1253
Chit Chat / Re: Sex Ed
« on: October 03, 2006, 03:47:48 PM »
This is a fascinating thread.  I have no kids.  If I did I would want to answer whatever questions they had truthfully and correct.  Doesn't mean they need every little detail at age four when they ask where babies come from, but I believe they should get answers.

When I got pregnant with DD#2 when DD#1 was only 4 (not quite, actually), I found a wonderful book that was pretty detailed.  It not only explained what was going on, it had a chart with the size of the fetus from the beginning to the end.  It was pretty darn cool . . . .

I've pretty much always been very open with the girls and so has their father.  I've answered any questions and occasionally volunteered info when they didn't ask questions but should have.  I've always felt that it was my responsibility to impart this info too . . . . not just because they needed to know the actual facts, but because it's also my job to let them know what my opinions about things are and what my values are. 

So there ya go, I'm raising two more just like me - Look Out World!!!

(Only if they decide they have the same values and opinions, which they may or may not . . . . .)

1254
Pond Chat / Re: Golden Club - Leanne or......?
« on: October 03, 2006, 12:58:11 PM »
I'm not LeeAnne, but I have it in my pond and have seen it growing in the okefenokee swamp in south Georgia.  It doesn't care how far it's submerged . . . it will grow with it's crown out of water or quite a ways under water.

Mine is in a large pot with just clay and it has a lot more roots than leaves, for sure.  I keep the crown at the surface because I like it where I can see it and that's where the pot lands when I put it in that spot in my pond.  When I got it, it was planted in a one gallon pot and I left it there for years . . . . when I finally transplanted it, there was no dirt left, just lots of roots.  So I moved it to a big (5 gallon?) pot with lots of clay.  As soon as I did that, the top spread and it got much bigger leaves.  It also doesn't seem to much care if it's in sun or shade, tho I did see more of them in somewhat shady areas of the swamp than in the full sun areas.

1255
Chit Chat / Re: Original "Hollywood Squares" responses
« on: October 03, 2006, 11:31:52 AM »
Wow!  Those are absolutely hilarious!  Thanks for posting them!

1256
Chit Chat / Re: Sex Ed
« on: October 03, 2006, 11:31:13 AM »
Well that's helpful . . . force the kids to sign something and it means absolutely nothing. 

1257
Chit Chat / Re: #$%^ messy, invasive pond plants!
« on: October 03, 2006, 11:30:34 AM »
With water hyacinths and lettuce, the problems go much further than them multiplying quickly . . . . they drop leaves and those long hairy roots all over the pond and they both attract aphids which then attack everything else in the pond.  They just are not worth the trouble.  My fish have never eaten my duckweed, but I don't have koi.  Even the turtles cannot keep up with either duckweed or frogbit - they both grow and spread so fast and make a huge mess.

1258
Chit Chat / Re: #$%^ messy, invasive pond plants!
« on: October 03, 2006, 09:42:34 AM »
Besides what's already been mentioned, duckweed, frogbit, water lettuce and water hyacinth . . .

grow the frogbit for the turtles but if you don't have turtles to eat it, it cannot be controlled.

1259
Pond Chat / Re: New pond/stream
« on: October 03, 2006, 05:53:36 AM »
As far as start up bacteria, should I order some from the skippy website, or would a bucket full of the water from my temporary pond suffice?


It looks great!  You did a wonderful job.

As long as you don't have it overloaded with fish, you shouldn't have to order bacteria.  If it makes you feel better, put the pads from the temporary pond into the filter of the new pond to jump start it.  They'll seed the new filter fairly quickly.

1260
Pond Chat / Re: Blooming 29 Sept - "Hanging onto Summer"
« on: October 03, 2006, 05:50:22 AM »
If you have a double ocean view, Casey and I are coming to live with you!

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