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Messages - Mike S.

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181
Pond Chat / Jongkolnee growing.
« on: June 29, 2011, 11:48:07 AM »
My first attempt at growing Jonkolnee was cut short while I kept the pair of very small tubers, about the size of a lotus seed, in a pot of water, waiting to see if maybe I could tease more than one plant from each of them. The got eaten by a raccoon!

I got another pair of these tiny tubers and was much more protective when I kept them in a pot of pond water, waiting for signs of growth. They came it with almost none. Finally, one produced a little plantlet and some roots. This one went into a 4 inch pot, thinking that if it grew, there'd be a good chance at producing more tubers in the smaller pot. The other tuber took a couple of weeks longer before it showed enough growth to plant and that one went into a larger pot to give me a better idea of what the "full-sized" plant was like.

I've since been told that the key to getting Jonkolnee to bloom is plenty of sun and room to spread.

Here is a picture of the one planted first, in the 4 inch pot.



The Jongkolnee is in the center. It's pads are spreading way out. There seems to be one right over each the Mungkala Ubons in the small, rectangular containers, and more of it's pads heading towards the rest of the waterlilies in the small pots and cups.

As those pads spread, I'll likely move the other plants inside the spread, to give the Jongkolnee all the room it wants. And yes, that is a kiddie pool. Got caught short when I was to have put in the first pair of production ponds, but I wanted to get more plants in the water and growing, right away. Round pools like this are not my favorite way to grow water lilies, but they do get the job done.

I'm not putting the inexpensive little pools down, as I've used them in the past to grow out a rather large Gigantea, with several other smaller waterlilies happily growing inside it's spread, and even spawned Koi in them (not such a good idea,) and hatched out the resultant fry in the same pool. (That worked OK.)

What I don't like about a round "pond" like the kiddie pool is that it makes it hard to tend to the plants in them. You pretty much have to wade in and that is kind of difficult when it starts getting tight in there, pads get pushed around and tangled and pots get overturned. This is why I much prefer and 4X8 (or longer) grow-out pond for waterlilies. And I like mine above ground, too. This set-up allows for easy maintenance of the plants without wading and bending at the knees too much.

I'll post more pics as the Jongkolnee grows and of course, when it blooms. It will be interesting to see the difference between the two plants when they bloom, since one is in a very small pot, the other a larger one.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

182
I wonder if she would have been harder to find if she'd been under the liner of a new pond? 
{-)

I'm just say'in. . .   {:-P;; 

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

183
Terrestrial Gardening / Re: Sea Oat Grass
« on: June 29, 2011, 11:09:44 AM »
I know I like it!

What growing zone are you in? Just wondering it it would be an anual in zone 8/9. . .

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

184
Pond Chat / Re: 2 projects, One worked, the other , not so hot!
« on: June 29, 2011, 11:07:06 AM »
Other than a tendency towards DIY projects, I'd say that "measuring skills" are something else we have in common. Wood working projects in the past became much easier when I tapped into my old boat building supplies where I had epoxy by the gallon and saved "wood flower" by the bag.

But hey, you got water from point A to point B. A sucess, in my book!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

185
Pond Chat / Re: Anyone know who pondmegastore.com is?
« on: June 29, 2011, 09:16:07 AM »
No idea about this one, but usually when a seller is part of the "Truely Named" group, it becomes a part of their advertising. (As it should.)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

186
Pond Chat / Re: Magic fish
« on: June 29, 2011, 09:13:32 AM »
Glad you did the "rescue" and eventually found something good in it. Personally, I have a very strong dislike for anyone who considers "flushing" to be a method of culling. To many other more humane methods available.

You, on the other hand, seem to be a much kinder sort of person and forward looking, in that eventually, you found something that appealed to you. As my Aussie friends would say, "Good on 'ya!"   :)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

187
Pond Chat / Re: 2 projects, One worked, the other , not so hot!
« on: June 29, 2011, 09:09:30 AM »
Looks like your idea should work, but algae can survive with only 10-20% of the normally available light. If it doesn't work out, then maybe consider going with a wood "flume," made of cypress. Let the algea grow and simply consider it as an adjunct part of the filter system, (like the green fur algae that should never be scrubbed from the sides of a pond.)

But, as you say, so far, so good!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

188
Pond Chat / Re: A study on dragonflies
« on: June 28, 2011, 04:32:23 PM »
Excellent, gtn!

Those pics show exactly what I wanted to see. And now I can relax a bit on the subject, I know what I'm seeing is indeed, dragonfly eggs.

Thank you very much!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

189
Tinkster,

I hope you don't beat youself up over this, it does happen, I've been through it myself, it has probably happend to more people than they'd care to admit to.

There has been some good advice in the post above on how this can be made less likely to happen. I'd be surprised to find that advice came from someone who learned the lesson the hard way. That's how I learned the lesson.

It helps when you can decide just what the primary function of the pond is. Is your primary interest in the plants, or the fish? When you can make that decision, you can do a better job designing a pond, or maintaining an existing one. I don't recall seeing too many backyard ponds that wasn't over-stocked with fish, if there was fish in them. It is that over-stocking that usually sets up this sort of disaster in the first place. The the tendency to over-stock is quite natural. If we followed Nature's stocking rates, many of our ponds would have NO fish in them, thoses that did would have so few they'd be hard to see.

When we increase the given body of water's capacity to hold fish, we also decrease the fish population to survive any kind of interuption of those "improvements" we made. Comes down to a simple equation, as the number of fish in a fixed volume goes up, the potential for loss goes up, exponentially.

Or more simply, fewer fish, more water, less problems.

A "properly stocked" Koi pond, usually reserved for high-end, show quality Koi, might only have one adult Koi per 1,000 gallons. At that stocking rate, the fish can comfortably survive for days with the power shut off. That sort of stocking rate is not something you are likely to find in a watergarden.

When you are keeping both plants and fish in the same pond, you have to compromise between the needs of both in the basic design. If one is more important to you, then you make that compromise lean towards that side of the equation. It's a balancing act. And there is nothing wrong with that.

You sound like the type that will learn from such an event, and move on. It's the best thing to do. I sincerly hope that's the way it goes.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL




190
Pond Chat / Re: A study on dragonflies
« on: June 28, 2011, 08:25:17 AM »
One thing I could not find, even with several Web searches, was a picture of dragonfly eggs, laid in water. What I was actually hoping for was a picture of them on a lily pad. (For obvious reasons!)

Got to say, the descriptons of the eggs in the previous post were most helpful! I'd been looking at some egg masses on quite a few waterlily pads and was thinking these were probably dragonfly eggs, but wasn't sure.

Kind of like frog egss, only much smaller?  Sort of a gelled mass of little black dots? If these are indeed dragonfly eggs, I'll stop removing them from the pads. (I like dragonflys!) I was a little suspicious that they could be some other kind of insect, maybe some kind of waterlily pad-eating little monster. I've had the usual attacks by the China Mark Moth larvae, which is easily dealt with, but one old pond has submerged pads that develope rather large cut-outs on them, before they even reach the surface. Some of these cuts are taken out of the edge, some are within the pad, like cookie cutter holes. This is something I'd not seen before.

Since the patio ponds were put in and the plants started growing, the dragonfly population went from "a few here and there," to what sometimes looks like the attack on Pearl Harbor. I can sit for hours just watching them.


Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

191
Pond Chat / Re: 2 projects, One worked, the other , not so hot!
« on: June 27, 2011, 11:56:33 AM »
When I saw the first pic, I thought you were going to disguise the spillway as a diving board! I think the plant shelf was probably a better choice. Fits better with the theme. . .

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

192
Pond Chat / Re: Lilies, Froglets & Lizards (Pics)
« on: June 27, 2011, 11:53:41 AM »
The first two pics are great, but I really love the last! The red-throated, long-tailed bug-eater is a common sight down here in Florida, but not around my house. Too many fur-bearing, four-legged, terrorist for them,  I guess.

Sometimes, I have to really work at getting a picture that doesn't include a cat in it. Seems most of mine are connoisseurs of pond water, among other things.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

193
In my area where the growing season is very long, plants that are root bound will, over time, either die, or escape.

Escape?   :missing:  If the plant does have enough nutrient, it can grow and literally push itself right out of the pot! Now, the good news is they can live quite a while after that so you can re-pot them, maybe in a larger pot or take the oportunity to divide them into two pots.

As far as I know from personal experience, the escaped plants do tend to remain in the pond, none of mine have actually taken off and gone down the street.   :teehee:

But seriously, if the container is large enough, plants that for whatever reason grow slowly, can take a number of seasons to actually become root bound. I would not consider a plant to be root bound until it takes a hammer to add a fertilizer pellet. Then, you need to do something.

Have you thought about making a small, aquatic greenhouse for your lotus? Might extend their growing season long enough to mature and bloom.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

194
Pond Chat / Re: From Thailand
« on: June 27, 2011, 11:25:14 AM »
Well, of the  two Blue Nangkwaug tubers I recieved, one turned out to me either a Egyptian Lotus (or Sacred Blue Lotus) waterlily, the other a white Nangkwaug. So, no Nangkwaug Fah.   >:(

But the Red should be blooming soon, there's still hope for it.   :)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

195
I appreciate the information!

As for the hardy plants growing well until they get root bound, that isn't a problem as these will be grown for sales. One thing I've seen with plants grown in small pots is that when the do become root bound, they will take re-potting VERY well. In fact, much better than a plant that is not root bound when it is re-potted. It's more like the sudden extra room triggers a growth spurt.

As for the Lotus, John Davis of Bushnell, FL, long-time IWGS member and my original waterlily mentor, grew his selling stock of lotus in one gallon pots, with many pots in a shallow plastic tank, so the water level was far enough over the pots to keep the plants happy.

By the time he sold them, they would usually have a bloom, and be rather root bound. He told his customers to cut the pot away from the plant without disturbing the root mass and re-pot them in appropriate containers. Those plants, like the root bound waterliles, didn't go through "transplant shock," they simply took to their new environment quite readily and grew like mad.

Totally blew away a lot of what I'd been told about growing lotus.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

196
Pond Chat / Re: Triple water lilies
« on: June 26, 2011, 06:03:22 AM »
You are quite right, it was a gift!
Thanks for posting the picture.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

197
Pond Chat / Re: Dead Zones
« on: June 26, 2011, 06:01:31 AM »
Finding the picture was easier than I thought!

In the picture below, the horizontal part in the bottom of the pic is the UV filter. the upright part on the right is the water inlet, the air lift is on the left, being supported by the rubber mallet. You can see the "Y" fitting at the top, with an extention that went well above the surface of the water.


That is where I put the air stone in the device. I put the airstone way down inside, so it rested just outside the body of the UV. That was simply to get it as deep as I could. The deeper the air stone, the more water it lifts. A simple air lift would be just a straight pipe, without those bends you see in the pic. The air lift was of course, inside the pond, the pipes passed through bulkhead fittings, to the UV filter, outside the pond. The opening of the horizontal part of the "Y" was about half submerged in the pond. It move a surprising amount of water.

You would have to fashion some sort of weighted base to hold the lift pipe straight up in the pond, while keeping the bottom of the pipe just above the bottom of the pond. But this set-up will set up a current in your dead spot and help move any mulm or sediment towards the active part of the pond where a filter system will remove it from the water.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

198
Pond Chat / Re: Dead Zones
« on: June 26, 2011, 05:36:44 AM »
One way to deal with a dead spot is with an air lift. Now, I don't know what you know, so forgive me if I over-explain.

An air lift is nothing more than a pipe that is vertical in the pond, one end just above the bottom, the top anywhere from just below the surface, to just above the surface, with an air stone somewhere in the pipe, near the bottom. The rising bubbles from the air stone pushes water up the pipe, drawing it in from the bottom, and lifts it out the top.

If that pipe has an elbow on the top, the water will flow out of the pipe and can be directed in any direction. Doing this will create a flow where there was none before, and help "turn over" the water by bringing water (and some sediment usually,) from the bottom of the pond to the top.

Using the elbow will make a bit of a noise, so you can use a "Y" fitting instead. Cut the pipe back so one part of the "Y" sticks up above the water, and the horizontal part of the "Y" is about half-submerged. The bubbles will come straight up and out thru the top of the "Y" fairly quietly, while the water will flow out of then horizontal part of the "Y." And you can simply drop the air stone right down the top of the "Y.'

I ran a 25 watt UV in a small pond using an air lift much as described with only a small aquairum pump to power the water thru the light tube. Worked great, used less power than a pump would have, and it also added a bit of oxygen to the water. If this description is kind of hard to follow, I will try to find a picture of it and post it. But is really is quite simple to set up and run.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

199
Greenthumbnails,

Glad you found the article. Just make sure you read the part about limiting the number of pads per plant. That is very important when you want to grow a lot of plants in a small space.

LeeAnne,

Looks like my assumption was wrong! I was going by what I could seen in the much smaller picture in Sean's article. The large one you posted shows the cup size clearly. And that's a good thing! Those look a lot like the cups that fit the despenser on those 5 gallon jug designer water stands in all the waiting rooms. Good deal, as those are very cheap! I'll use my current supply of large cups and then switch over.

Have you tried anything to mass-grow hardy waterlilies? I was thinking that plants with a horizontal rhizome could be grown in shallow, wide containers, such as the inexpensive food storage containers, like the 1 qt bowl. I think this would work using Sean's "Bonsai" method, to produce smaller plants in numbers, in a minimum space.

I appreciate the correction. Just don't know why it didn't occur to me to simply email Sean and get it right the first time.   :redface:

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

200
Matherfish, PM sent.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

201
Pond Chat / Re: What's in a name?
« on: June 23, 2011, 05:49:43 AM »
Well, at least with oil paints, names that are based on the pigment used can tell you a lot about what it really looks like. Oil colors with "descriptive" names can be very misleading.

As for the translations of spellings, for many years we all called the capital of mainland China, "Peking." Now it is generally known as "Beijing." Same city, different spelling and pronunciation.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

202
I *think* Sean re-did his web site and the address may be different if you bookmarked it a while back. Just to be sure, try this:
http://www.seanmstevens.com/seansponds/

One this one, I did not see his "Growing Waterlilies in Dixie Cups" article. However, it does still exist intact, thru several portals, the most direct being http://www.victoria-adventure.org/waterlilies_images/dixie_cup_culture/dixie_cup.html

In the article he does say that he's planting them in 7oz Dixie Cups, but the picture shows a cup that looks somewhat larger, maybe around 12 oz's or so. I have used 8 oz. plastic cups in the past for starting new waterlilies, but not for what he's doing in the article. He does state that he places them in the pond, about a foot apart, and then goes on to explain the "Bonsai" approach to growing them out.

I'm currently experimenting with using somewhat larger 18 oz cups, myself. Very inexpensive from WalMart, but for plant production, they may turn out to be too big. Time will tell. Also, I want to try something for hardy production, using about a 1 quart "disposable" food storage bowl, on the theory that those can also be "Bonsai-ed" for production purposes, but they need more surface area for the horizontal growth of the rhizome.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

203
Pond Chat / What's in a name?
« on: June 23, 2011, 05:18:06 AM »
I got to wondering about Thai waterlily names, after getting a short list of translations for some of the colors, and turned to the one person who's been most helpful when I've had questions about those plants. Her name is Primlarp Wasuwat Chukiatman, daughter of Dr. Slearmlarp Wasuwat. She was the first who noticed an interesting waterlily in one of their ponds, so he named the Primlarp night bloomer after her. Until recently I thought Dr. Wasuwat had originated the Mungkala Ubon, but I've since been corrected.

I was curious about what "Mungkala" might mean, here is a quote from Primlarp:

"In thai word mungkala meaning close to the decent good thing. on the other hand ubon means waterlily so the meaning of the name is The decent good waterlily.But this name may came from the place that grow this one too cause it was hybrid at the Technology Rachamongkol Bangpra,Chonburi THAILAND at lease 10 years."

I also asked about the other part of the name, as I'd seen it spelled both "Ubol" and as "Ubon." Here is her comments on that:

"No the right name is 'Mungkala Ubon ' and yes the word Ubon mean waterlily(nymphaea) but patum or Bua luang means lotus(nelumbo).

So, I got smart and told her I had bought one sold as Red Ubol, and asked I should label it as being a Ubol Dang, or should it be Dang Ubon. Turns out, she says, if it is the "Red Ubol," then "you can not used the name Dang Ubon because it is the synonym of 'Laydekeri Fulgens' in Thailand for at lease 30 years. She suggested if it is actually something else, which I'm pretty sure it is, we'd have to find a different name for it.

Asking about the various spellings of Nangkwaug, I wrote:
I have seen Nangkwag spelled as two words, Nang Kwag, also as Nangkwaug and Nang Kwak. Is there one spelling you would consider to be correct? Her reply was:

"After I confuse about how to spell it for a while so I agree with Mr.Pairat and my father that the right spelling should be Nangkwaug ....please forgive me for this very confusing."

It does get complicated when a name gets translated from one language to another, as many do not have direct translations. It looks like spelling variations also exist in the original languages. So often, there will be more than one "correct" names in English, and more than one "correct" spellings, as well. But I do love to learn the stories behind the names, as well as at least trying to get the spellings right, as best I can.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

204
Pond Chat / Re: A funny place to bask!
« on: June 22, 2011, 03:59:47 PM »
Dont think I've ever seen a Chia Turttle before. . .   ::)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

205
Pond Chat / Re: Pads, pads and more pads
« on: June 22, 2011, 03:53:35 PM »
Someone has a future in poster art!

Pads, pads, and more pads, it's YOU, MAGOO!!   8)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

206
Pond Chat / Re: Another day with new blooms!
« on: June 21, 2011, 07:38:33 PM »
Most of the hardy waterlilies are in one gallon pots. Some of the tropicals are, but most of them are going into either 4 inch pots or 18oz plastic cups, ala' Shawn.

With both, I'm looking for tuber production, more so than blooms, this year.

As for fertilizer, they all get a dose of Red Diamond prills in the bottom, with a regular "pond tab" as a "jump-starter." I'm experimenting with the Red Diamond, and have already decided that the label instructions of 3/4 cap full per gallon is kind of light and will be using a full cap full in those one gallon pots, maybe more.

Right now, my major concern is probably the same as most of you, pond space! Running low on funds so I'll be putting up some kiddey pools until I can get more grow out ponds up and running.

It's fun, but HOT out there!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

207
Pond Chat / Re: Perry's Orange Sunset Today
« on: June 21, 2011, 12:24:45 PM »
Really like the Orange Sunset. But the pads of your Wanavista are real eye-catchers!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

208
Pond Chat / Another day with new blooms!
« on: June 21, 2011, 12:21:15 PM »
Another waterlily that I'd not grown before, or even heard up until recently, is Munkala Ubon. I have two potted up in one patio pond and they both now have blooms. Looks like Mungkala Ubon day!



Here's a close up of a pair of them. I love the soft, peach color. I'll have to place it along side something red or maybe a dark blue.




The mottled pads seen in the pictures belongs to a Nangkwaug. And speaking of that one, Looks like I don't have a blue one, after all. One the two tubers that should have been Nangkwaugh in the blue form, turned out to be another white. The other might be an Egyptian Lotus water lily, aka, Sacred Lotus, or could be a form of Carpensis.

But right now, I'm really enjoying the Mungkala Ubon!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

209
That would be a very nice surprise to find, indeed!   :)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

210
Pond Chat / Re: Finally convinced DH!
« on: June 21, 2011, 12:04:42 PM »
Tinkster makes a good point. Your waterlilies won't like a lot of water crashing into their pond. If you can arrange it, let the falls "splash down" into a basin of some sort, then let that have a nice, easy flow into the pond.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

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