Author Topic: Aussie Seed (Read 7436 times)

Timgod · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:47:01 AM »

Thanks again Craig.

Tim

CT · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2007, 09:20:28 AM »

Thanks so much Craig. I'm really looking forward to growing these

Kay

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2007, 05:52:55 PM »

Thanks Craig. I'll let you know when they get here and also will let you know what the seeds turn out to be.

Happy ponding,
Scott

El Jefe · « **Reply #33 on:** February 03, 2007, 09:46:24 AM »

Wow something went wrong.... I could have sworn I posted a thank you here

Craig my apologies it may be the other thread I was thinking of. I will try this again. The seed and the bulb arrived the night of the storm powere had gone in and out all night. I was locking up the house and noticed the box out on the front stoop in a small obscure area. I went out and retrieved it and when I saw it was from you I had to open it. I put the seed in water right away and placed them in with my hardy experiment to stay warm and have a grow light to support it. Hope they all sprout (simply cannot wait to see the results) Thank you again! Andy

Craig · « **Reply #34 on:** February 03, 2007, 02:40:26 PM »

Hey Andy,

I got your planting instruction right here.<g>

Really no great shakes, but keep the tuber this side of dry until it starts growing....which is usually March down here.

For potting medium they recommend Fafard 3B, but I use 2P, the main difference is that 3B has pine bark in it, but I just add some shavings to the 2P which btw is just peat and perlite.

Fill the pot half way and add 1/4 C bone meal and mix well into the soil. Add a thin layer of soil with no amendments, sit the tuber on top and fill with more of the plain peat medium. The tuber should be under a few inches of soil. Top dress with a time relase fertilizer and water...then wait. Fairchild uses a 15-4-9 +Mg, but I use triple 14 plus minors.

The main thing is that afer that first watering, you almost never want to water again until you see growth above the soil. Just keep it barely damp and even that sounds too wet...just this side of dry is better.

Once it starts to grow feed weekly as they are heavy feeders. The tuber may be large enough to give you a bloom this year.

As for the Aussie seed....I don't know how warm your experimental tank is, but Andre Leu an Australian Australian lily expert suggest a temp over 90 F for germination. Tropicals in general like heat, but the Aussie Nymphs like it toasty. Temps in the low 80's may send them into dormancy....though an established immutabilis tolerates cooler temps better than the gigantea.

Hope this makes sense and helps.<g>

El Jefe · « **Reply #35 on:** February 03, 2007, 04:27:18 PM »

Roger That

the Hardy Tank is between 70 and 75 I will break out another tank. I know I have a 10 or a 20 gallon in here somewhere. Learning every day!! As to those soils you mentioned..Local nursery maybe? Also Sun or Shade? When the Time comes to put it outside. Shade if I remember correctly. If I pull this off there will be plenty of pictures ESPECIALLY if it blooms! Thanks you again! Andy

Vickie · « **Reply #36 on:** February 03, 2007, 07:21:19 PM »

Thanks so much Craig for the seed. I hope I can grow them.

Craig · « **Reply #37 on:** February 04, 2007, 01:13:36 PM »

Where to get Fafard? Ah, there's the rub. I get mine from a growers supply and can't recall seeing it for sale eslewhere. Somewhere I have the percentages on the content of 3B if you want to mix your own. Short of that, I've used Miracle Gro, Lambert's and Jungle from the big box stores for other plants and the main difference is they seem to have a finer grind of peat, but I'd say either the Lambert's or Miracle Gro ( Home Depot) would be more than acceptable.

As for sun, they do like some and I keep mine where they get a dose of the morning sun and then late afternoon.

Timgod · « **Reply #38 on:** February 05, 2007, 05:36:01 PM »

Yes!
Yess!!
Yesss!!!
Postman left my gift from Craig today. Now I get to try and grow the seed out. It will be so cool if there is blue and purple in the seed mix.

Once again thanks Craig.
Tim

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #39 on:** February 05, 2007, 08:29:39 PM »

Craig, thank you, thank you, and thank you.

They arrived today. Now I will set up the tank so I can start them.

Happy ponding,
Scott

El Jefe · « **Reply #40 on:** February 05, 2007, 08:50:31 PM »

Craig I FOUND SOME!!!!

it appears that the local nursery can get it for me. So I can get started on it this weekend!! Can't wait!
Andy

CT · « **Reply #41 on:** February 05, 2007, 09:21:21 PM »

Thank you Craig!! Seed arrived today. Starting them tomorrow!

Vickie · « **Reply #42 on:** February 06, 2007, 07:05:44 PM »

Thanks Craig I got my seeds yesterday. Keeping fingers crossed.

Timgod · « **Reply #43 on:** February 07, 2007, 09:07:56 AM »

Craig,
I have a curiosity question for you.
Why does the N. gigantea seed need to be kept in water for viability and the N. immutabilis not need water?
I remembered reading this info below a few years ago and was wondering if I had remembered it incorrectly.

Quote

At this point, tropical seeds can be dried, on paper towels for instance, and stored indefinitely in the refrigerator or they can be planted. Seeds from all hardies (Nymphaea), N. gigantea from the Australian subgenus Anecphya, as with Victoria and Euryale, must be stored in water to remain viable.

Quote cited from http://www.victoria-adventure.org/waterlilies/growing_from_seed.html credit to Kit Knotts.

Since they are both Anecphya, why do they have differing needs for propagation? Is it because they originally have different geographical growing areas. Perhaps one area has the drought/ rainy season cycle and the other does not. I remember reading somewhere that the N. gigantea grows in the south while the N. immutabilis grows in the northern part of Australia.
Tim

Vickie · « **Reply #44 on:** February 07, 2007, 12:08:13 PM »

okay does that mean I need to put my seeds in the fridge until I sprout them?

Craig · « **Reply #45 on:** February 08, 2007, 04:55:31 PM »

Hi Tim,

The simple explanation is that they are different species and have different requirements, just like N. odorata and N. capensis can't be stored the same.

When I've gotten immutabilis seed and N. violacea from Australia it has been dry and germinated fine. This time the N.gigantea seed was sent dry as well...and though I haven't tried it yet, rumor is there is trouble. Violacea, georginae and immutabilis in the same shipment are sprouting, but not alexii, gigantea and hastifolia. Not sure yet on what to expect on the other species in the batch.

It is a bit of a disappointment if I can't get the new stuff started, but hopefully replacements are on the way.

And Scott....your gigantea was stored wet, just shipped dry, so it should be fine. I doubt the embryo had time to dry out.

Timgod · « **Reply #46 on:** February 08, 2007, 08:19:41 PM »

Thanks for the clarification.
Tim

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #47 on:** February 09, 2007, 08:41:22 PM »

Thanks for letting me know Craig. I did seem a little puzzled when they came dry. I always thought that were stored wet but I didn't think that they could be dried. I'll stop worrying now.

Happy ponding,
Scott

Craig · « **Reply #48 on:** February 10, 2007, 11:55:08 AM »

Hi Tim,

I hope my response didn't sound smug. Shouldn't have said "simple explanation' when the truth is it is the only one I can think of. There has been so little research into lilies that I am aware of.

I think I am going to err on the side of caution and store all this years seed in water....should I get sprouts from the new stuff. The main reason I got away from it, is I tend to leave it on a shelf somewhere and before I remember to properly 'store' it, the seed has sprouted. So drying was going to be my lazy way out.<g>

Timgod · « **Reply #49 on:** February 10, 2007, 03:10:08 PM »

I wasn't offended Craig. I was just trying to gain some insight. I know in recent years they have reclassified some Anecyphya as new species when originally there was one and then that became two and so on and so on. I know your background is in the science of biology and more specifically in plants. I was just trying to get a layman's reason behind it if you knew. I figure the more I can learn about them, the better I can understand their needs and the more successful I will be at growing them. Last year was the first year I had been able to get crosses in Nyphaea to produce seed. I had previously been been trying to pollinate lilies that I thought would make beautiful progeny. Unfortunately since most of them were created hybrids many proved to be sterile in pod or parent. I went back to the beginning last year and got some species lilies to try and start from scratch. I had good success in producing seed through numerous varieties so now I will have to wait to see if the results are something that will set themselves apart. If I can create something that is new and beautiful in the Nymphaea then later on perhaps I can move on to the Anecphya but I will need to know as much as possible to be even modestly successful. I have to admit I wish I had your ability to be able to pollinate something almost on a timetable to get the seed you want when you want. Hopefully that ability will come through time and practice.
Tim

Craig · « **Reply #50 on:** February 10, 2007, 05:36:56 PM »

Hi Tim,

I think Anecphya have been in a flux because there has been so little research on them until recently. I had the great pleasure this past summer of meeting and having a long conversation with Dr. Barre Hellequist who is involved in most of the present work on taxonomy in Anecphya. A lot of it involved the evolutionary divergence within a couple complexes, one being N. gigantea and the other I think was N. macrosperma. Things have gotten more sophisticated and now DNA markers are being used to chart the divergence more so than morphological differences. For me it was one of the more fascinating afteroons I've spent in recent memory. One offshoot of it was that I the new seed. A mix of species and their various forms from 19 collection sites with some of the relevant data on environmental conditions...and don't let anyone tell you that Anecphya can't take heat. Now I just need to get them to grow.<g> I'm especially taken with N. violacea and I now have seed for the white, pink and blue forms.

As for hybridizing.....I haven't used named cultivars ( at least other peoples') for some years now, so can't be much help in saying which hybrids are fertile and which sterile for podand/or pollen. Hybrids break down when they are crossed and the F2 generation can be a crap shoot. It isn't a linear process, so there really is no way of knowing what the progeny will look like..or even what color they will be. So I developed some of my own lines that seem to have 'fixed' the traits I find desireable...like the moptops. Sounds good...but mostly it has been pure luck.<g>

The downside is they are very weakly fertile and I get very few seed, but since I don't sell seed ( though I give seed away for the asking without reference to the parents as that is largely meaningless if not misleading), that is a non- factor because instead of getting gobs of seed producing a homogenous batch of so-so looking lilies, when I do get seed ( often fewer than 10 good seed per pod) the chances of getting something I like have been greater, but I go long stretches getting nothing.

Sorry to ramble, but it is a subject I like to run off at the mouth about.<g> The point in all of this is that it does take time to find which lilies produce fertile seed but a microscope will tell you almost immediately if you are working with viable pollen. If you get into hybridizing seriously, a microscope is well worth the investment.

EagleEye · « **Reply #51 on:** February 10, 2007, 09:04:52 PM »

I'd like as much as you could send me.

What did you say it was again????????????

Steve

Timgod · « **Reply #52 on:** February 10, 2007, 10:38:29 PM »

Microscope, yep that is on my list after reading Rich's pamphlet/ book last year. I just didn't see the point as it was getting late in the season and would have just collected dust for 6 months. I got N. ampla,
N. colorata, N. capensis, N. odorata last year and was able to use them to produce seed in quite a few varieties. Although I am finding that the unruly characteristics of odorata will probably have me get away from using it.
I read that you have used N. micrantha. Is it a good species lily to add to my collection for the possible purpose of hybrids? Are there any other lilies you would suggest that I try to get as a starting point?
Of the pods that I was able to harvest last year, many had hundreds of seeds but a couple of crosses produced 20 or so seeds. I am hoping I can get them to grow and see if something interesting pops up.
Tim

Timgod · « **Reply #53 on:** February 10, 2007, 11:22:06 PM »

Oh man!!!
I have been reading the articles from the latest WGI journal. The Stunning Species Nymphaea of Australia
by C. Barre Hellquist.
I saw the pix by Dr. C. Barre Hellquist and am stunned by the beauty of this N. violacea.

I sure hope that is one you are able to grow and get out in the future. If you couldn't see the water behind the flower you could almost mistake it for a dahlia. The color variation is beautiful.

Tim

Craig · « **Reply #54 on:** February 11, 2007, 01:17:56 PM »

Lol....why do I think this is the kind of thread that I was hoping for in "Hybridizing How To's"

Hate to be a naysayer, but I wouldn't put a whole lot of effort into using N. odorata. Not to say it can't be done, but I have my doubts a hardy/tropical cross has ever been done....that said with all due respect to Mr. Slocum.

I have or will have N. micrantha if you want to try it. I keep the white micrantha that came from a collection in West Africa. My personal belief is that the blue micrantha is a natural hybrid. I never got anything that thrilled me from using it. Mostly I got 'Lavender Lace', 'Islamorada' looking seedlings. Islamorada without the speckles I should add.

A starting point is tough as it is largely a matter of personal choice as to what you are looking to 'create'. I mostly used Pring's hybrids that I thought had a high percentage of species lilies in them...thinking the traits I was after would be more stable, but then backcrossed and outcrossed with other species until the 'look' I was going for showed a higher percentage of the time. Again, sounds good, but I still ascribe most of my 'successes' to pure luck. I have yet to come close to predicting what will get for a seedling.

Currently, I have been happy with some of the stuff I've gotten using a 'White capensis' that appeared in a pond. And some of my crosses using N. violacea show promise if you like oddball looking flowers.<g> And obviously, N. ampla did well for me, but the seedlings are all sterile so I gave up on it as the answer to the 'next step' I want to take....which is a full palette of moptops.

I'm pinning my hopes for that on this line which is both pollen and seed fertile. And the pink is one of the violacea/Brachyceras crosses I mentioned. Not the best, but somewhat representative.<g>

Timgod · « **Reply #55 on:** February 11, 2007, 11:46:00 PM »

Yes I would like to try the micanthra if you have some available. I am confused though. In your article at victoria adventure on "From Conception to Bloom" you listed micanthra as the pollen parent and you got several that you named out of the cross. Do you attribute more of the desireable characteristics to the pod parent, your N. 'Day Glow?
I agree that is a rather strange looking lily, the pink one. I love your lilies that have all of the small petals/ petaloids. That one almost seems like the opposite...all stamen.
If you would like I will move this discussion to another area and will copy, paste and quote you if you would like.
Tim

Craig · « **Reply #56 on:** February 14, 2007, 04:00:18 PM »

Hi Tim,

I'll get a N. micrantha started for you, should be ready by March. I tend ot ignore them terribly, but did see one out there blooming today. Just need to shape it up. I suggest when you get it you collect some seed. They don't tuber worth a darn and come cool weather they like to go down suddenly.

Micrantha was the pollen parent, but nothing particularly decent came out of that crop, imo. Vanilla Sky....well it wan't my idea to name that one, but sometimes my veto gets overridden.<g> And the other Jennifer C....named it and then let it go. A better one came along that my daughter wanted....they get to pick their namesakes.

Timgod · « **Reply #57 on:** February 14, 2007, 11:20:43 PM »

Well immortalizing your family is a great side effect to your passion, hobby and vocation. What more could you ask for?

Tim

Timgod · « **Reply #58 on:** February 27, 2007, 10:34:04 AM »

I only sprouted about 1/2 of what you sent so far but I had a 100% germination rate with the N. immutabilis you sent me. Thanks.

Tim