"natural pond"

[Athens_Ponder]

It was suggested that I repost this here (more traffic).

Hi Folks,

So, yes, I was naive and dug a hole (it grew to 17' x 14') built up shelves and a lip and figured, okay, get a liner and a pump and you are good to go.  HA!  When I went to buy the liner and pump he didn't have the size I needed so it was off to the Internet and the land of confusion.  I guess that's good in that I haven't bought anything yet and am now taking the time to learn learn learn.  My main goals for the pond are bird bath (running water waterfall into a 2" deep rocky beach for bird bathing), a 2-3" edge with rocks/sand for frogs/amphibs/birds to have access, a place to grow plants I haven't grown before, a place to let the frogs and toads eat bugs and breed, and thats about it.  I'm not tied to having fish.  If fish eat frog eggs then I'm totally willing to forgo the fish and use mosquito dunks.  I've talked to a local pond construction guy (he's built over 200 ponds) and he's almost got me convinced I need to add a skimmer and biofilter.  He's got a kit he's willing to sell me for $1800 (throwing in construction help - mostly for the connections and such).  Of course when I heard $1800 I staggered back a little.  Here's what I was prepared to do.

I don't know if we can list companies on this forum, but hoping we can, I'll continue.

I was going to get a 25' x 30' liner from bestnest at $400 (delivered), a Pondmaster Pond-Mag 36 Pump for $174, and and some kind of biological filter falls type unit (why do they very from < $200  to > $400...it seems like a glorified plastic bucket to me ;-).   All told about $700-$900.  I was going to paint a milk crate black and put the pump on top of it so it doesn't suck up gunk from the bottom.  I was even thinking about getting rotorflush $25? for the pump prefilter to keep frog eggs & tadpoles from getting sucked into it.  (p.s. not much internet chat about that product..anyone got any experience?).   I was going to have lots of plants to hide the pump & pumbing.   I was kinda hoping that was all the hardware I needed.  In the last couple days I've been scared that I was going to end up with a LOT of pond maintenance issues.  I do have a river birch tree overhaning the pond which will drop leaves.  I was prepared for skimming them out after work- should only take 5 minutes or less.  Since it's a natural pond (with no fish) do I really need it to be crystal clear?  Won't the plants clean the water and create some like of equilibrium?   I know I am naive in all this so please be gentle.  Do any of you have a pond without fish?  Do I really need to spend $1800 to have a pond I will enjoy and not curse?  Thanks in advance.  - Steve

p.s. From the last few days of web surfing it seems that the natural pond concept is more popular in the UK.  Many of the hits are from UK sites.  I think there are probably less people in the US building a pond for frogs and wildlife here.  Most of the pond forum sites I've seen are pretty koi/goldfish oriented.  That could be why I'm hearing that you need a skimmer, bottom drain, filter, etc....Fish make things more complicated I guess.  Another question i just thought off....bottom gunk...as long as it isn't fish waste, why is it bad for pond wildlife. 

[Julles]

Hi Athens,

I would strongly suggest you consider a bog filter.  They're easy to build, fairly cheap (basically, just 2"x12", PVC pipe, and couple hundred pounds of gravel at @ $20), virtually maintenance-free, they go right along with your natural look, and you will have a place to plant even more types of plants.   

I'm not a know-it-all about skimmers, but I can say that this weekend, I saw about two dozen ponds (the annual Houston pond tour) and a good many of them - esp. the larger ponds - had skimmers.  But I don't have one on my pond (550 gallons), and I dont' see that they're all that necessary... IF you are willing to skim out the fallen leaves yourself.  Or put a net over it, which helps, too.

I'm not sure about the pre-filter... sounds like something that could put some strain on the pump, causing it to suck through an obstacle.  Our pond store here has been trying to get their pump manfacturer to take the spongy things OUT of their kits!

The milk crate idea sounds good ... IF your pond is really deep.  If not, remember that you want to recirculate as much water as possible, and that would mean taking water from the deepest part the farthes away from the waterfall as possible, and then pumping it across the whole pond to the waterfall.  But.... if you want all that muck so you can incubate bugs and dragonfly eggs, holding the pump off the bottom sounds good.  Incidentally, I bought two such crates for about $5 each - already black - at WalMart.  I cut some of the mesh area open more, so my larger koi could swim inside and have hidey-holes.

Also... consider making TWO sections to your pond.  I saw it on the tour... connected by a stream, but not possible for fish to get from one pond to the other.  Because you WILL want fish at some point.  Trust me.   

[karen J]

Sounds good to me. However, one thing to remember is that it really will not be natural. No matter what, it is still a lined, man-made entity that will require maintenance. Even without fish, frogs and birds and plants produce waste.

I have a pond with fish (koi/goldfish) and a pond with no fish at all. The frogs don't seem to have a preference between the two, except for tree frogs- they like the still pond.
My reasons for building my main pond were similar to yours: Birds, frogs, plants... fish last. I love Koi, but my experienced opinion is that they belong indoors.

I get different types of enjoyment out of my different ponds. I have to say this, though- animals (no matter what kind) really do appreciate the cleaner water of my filtered pond. The birds visit the stream all day long.
(they do visit the unfiltered pond, but there is no running water there.  I don't clean it very much and the water is crystal clear, all the time).

If you plan on having a lot of plants that float (lilies, etc), then a skimmer is not as effective. However, drawing oxygen- rich water through a skimmer to a biofilter is better for the biofilter. My "glorified plastic buckets" that I paid a lot of money for aren't any better than the glorified plastic buckets that I made myself. In fact, I'm pretty disappointed with my skimmer (400.00). I could have made a better one from a 40.00 slop sink.
I really love my mechanical filter box. It is filled with Black Knight brushes... I could easily fit another hundred into my system. But that is something you could make yourself, if you are so inclined.

Frogs and birds produce a lot of waste. I use a TT that I made from a large old flower pot, hardware cloth, and bio material.

[Johns]

As KarenJ indicated, lined ponds are actually outdoor aquariums and require much maintenance to remain healthy environs for livestock.  You can make them "Look" natural, but they ain't. The only real natural ponds don't even have dams, and even then if you stock them with non-native fish you will have maintenance issues.  Good luck and you may as well start now planning on your next bigger pond because ponding is habit forming.