Author Topic: Why .......  (Read 2543 times)

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Offline El Jefe

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Why .......
« on: April 13, 2008, 06:11:08 PM »
Do you salt your pond? what is the purpose and what is the benefit??
… The soul is dyed the color of it’s thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice, Day by day, what you choose, what you think and what you do is WHO you become. Your integrity is your destiny, it is the light that guides your way……


Offline Bonnie

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2008, 06:23:14 PM »
Some people use salt on a routine basis as part of their spring start up, to help the slime coat but most 'experts' will tell you only to use if needed.
3% is recommended by some when fish are in QT and also can be recommended to add when fish are stress.
Just beware when using salt with plants.. too much salt = dead plants! {nono}

Offline models916

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2008, 07:15:06 AM »
.3% will kill a lot of harmful things in the pond. use it once in the spring for about a week or two and then change it out. Rock Salt only or solar salt 99.9 pure only. Stronger or later in the year will kill a lot of plants. The fish love a little salt.

Offline Joyce

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2008, 07:26:38 AM »
I don't believe in using salt at all. :no:
I believe in using proper filtration, pond maintenance and a manageable fish load.
o(  o(  o(  o(  o(  o(  o(  o(

I don't believe in using anything that isn't present in the natural habitat of a koi or goldfish.

Salt does increase the slime layer of a freshwater fish,
but only because it acts as an irritant which causes the fish to produce more slime.
And exactly what are the benefits to increasing a slime layer anyway?
What about a natural slime layer instead of an abnormally thick layer?
I just don't get it.  :thinking:

I don't believe in irritating my fish in ANY way. 8)

And like everyone else stated...salt kills plants. :o
It also can kill beneficial bacteria too.
IMHO Salt is a quickie bandaid treatment (like PP) that in the long run causes more problems than it solves. :P
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline Bonnie

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2008, 09:01:24 AM »
A bandaid is something that only takes care of something temporarily and does not take care of the problem.. Salt can be an effective cure for many things.

http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/articles_details.php?article_id=41&category=13&name=Medications
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/as-458.pdf
http://www.nfkpc.org/html/how_to_use_salt.html



Offline Joyce

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2008, 10:00:59 AM »
Actually, those links reinforce my beliefs, especially coming from Doc Johnson who has killed all his fish with bad fish keeping methods and bandaid treatments several times over.

And besides, the claim that salt will not harm filtration is false. {nono}
Salt kills bacteria, doesn't discriminate between bad and good (biofiltration) bacteria.

And then people keep on using the wrong decimal notation when giving the % rates for salt usage.
For example: (taken from one of the links above)
Under normal pond salinities (0.1%) ulcer disease can cause a loss of internal salts through the open sore. Addition of 1.0% salt to the koi in a separate hospital tank will limit this loss of internal salts. Limit this concentration to 2 to 4 weeks.

What they really mean is .01 which signifies one percent.
.1 denotes 10 percent.
It's simple math and decimal point usage. :)

Any newbie reading these wrong decimal notations could unintentionally oversalt their pond and kill their fish.  :o

Once again, with proper pond filtration, pondkeeping and fish load, no salt, or any bandaid treatment will be needed. 8)
This is just my ever so humble opinion, and from years and years of pond keeping.
I have never once killed a pond full of fish.
But then again, I don't use salt, PP or any chemicals. (bandaid treatments)
You wanna see your fish start flashing? Add some salt. It irritates their skin...they starts flashing.
Not for my fish. :no:
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline Johns

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2008, 10:11:00 AM »
Wanna know about salt in fish ponds?   Either believe Joyce,(who's has been 99. 44% 100 pure, er, correct, or follow this link which will tell you how to add salt if you really want to and choose to, and other pros and cons.  Be sure to hit the Norm Meck link contained therin.   
http://www.gardenendeavors.com/rack/web15.html


Offline El Jefe

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2008, 10:28:17 AM »
Well that answers my questions in general, I was not sure why someone would want to salt a freshwater pond, seemed to me it would kill off the lillies. My native fish are a little more hardy than Koi or Goldfish. Now for those that know (done properly) would this kill off any fungus that may be attacking the pads?. My Pond is healthy in most respects I really don't want to kill off the great start my plants have gotten off to. (or chance it) as there is nothing wrong with my fish, filter is working plants are growing, just wanted to know why I see this recommended on other sites, what were the benefits as opposed to the detracters. Now I know.... O0 Thanks for the great input!!

Andy
… The soul is dyed the color of it’s thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice, Day by day, what you choose, what you think and what you do is WHO you become. Your integrity is your destiny, it is the light that guides your way……


Offline Joyce

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2008, 10:46:37 AM »
Hi Andy!

If your lilies are showing any signs of fungus, I would recommend Marilyn's advice, and that is to hand trim off the diseased pads.
Even if it means removing all the pads on a particularly fungal lily, it's OK cuz the pads will grow back.
Giving each lily a lot of space, so they are not bumping into one another and getting crowded also helps prevent fungal infections.
I see you like to get in the pond, so I know hand pruning pads wouldn't be a problem with you.  ;)  8) :D

Once again, using salt can be quite an opinion-based issue. :suspect: (nevermind the facts like proper decimal point usage)
Some people like instant gratification, don't mind their ponds being chemical cocktails, so it would be great for these types.
Like the link John provided, before dosing your pond with salt, you need to know exactly how much salt is already present.
After every rain, you need to test the salt levels and then re-adjust them accordingly. Yes, each time it rains. Each time you top off your pond.
Each time any water is lost or gained in your pond (evaporation causes the salt content to increase), you need to test the salt content. You can't make guesses.
You need to get a salt meter...you need to get VERY technical and precise in order to salt it correctly and not kill your fish and/or plants...
and lose the investment of money and time you have spent on getting your pond up and running.  :o
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 10:52:15 AM by Joyce »
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline Joyce

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2008, 11:27:54 AM »
Yep, I did post pix of exactly TWO dead koi.
And I did already comment on how they died.  8)

Generally, I don't treat my fish at all Bonnie. :)
I don't give treatments when none are needed.
I don't fix things that aren't broken. :no:
And like you said, if I did, I would NOT treat and entire pond, that would be assinine overkill.
If a koi or goldfish acts ill, the first thing I do is observe, watch and wait.
I will observe the fish for days, and wait for Mother Nature to do her thing.
When a fish can fight off an illness or injury on its own, it's immune system becomes stronger.
If the condition does not correct itself in a few days and seems to be getting worse, I have been known to remove fish and treat them in quarantine.
Although the stress of quarantine can also kill a fish, I will mentally weigh it out and make an educated decision.
Even when one of my big koi was horribly injured by an Osprey last year, I watched and waited...and she healed...
by herself and with Mother Natures help. No salt, no nothing.  8)

To me, salting an entire pond is assinine overkill. That's my opinion. 8)
Using salt in a qurantine tank can be useful. :)
But salt does NOT cure everything and one needs to know what they are treating before using salt.

But the question posed was about salting ponds, therefore I am keeping this on topic and keeping it about ponds.

And no Bonnie, I would never think you would jab me ever.  lol
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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“Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature.
It will never fail you.”
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Offline El Jefe

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2008, 11:28:58 AM »
Again great input! Thank you for that. I won't be adding salt anytime soon. Fish are happy, plants are doing well and I am in that pond every other weekend cutting off pads, so hopefully it will al come under control this year. Andy

On a side note, The last time I salted fresh water fish it was to put their fillets in the smoker..... Nothing like some good smoked salmon, (Lake Michigan)

Sounds like this process is much the same as when I had aquariums Salt the freshwater fish and Freshwater the Salt water fish  seems to kill all the bugs either way. I would watch mine for a couple of days and then quarantine as necessary. Don't have a tank big wnough for these 15 pound catfish though and they WILL poke you...  ;) (hurts like you know what too!)

Andy
« Last Edit: April 14, 2008, 11:48:14 AM by El Jefe »
… The soul is dyed the color of it’s thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice, Day by day, what you choose, what you think and what you do is WHO you become. Your integrity is your destiny, it is the light that guides your way……


Offline Joyce

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2008, 12:05:55 PM »
Andy, I've been poked by those big cats too...not fun at all and burns/aches for days. :'(
Maybe there is some kind of poison in those whiskers? :o
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline Julles

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2008, 12:07:43 PM »
Hmmm.

I thought you were always SUPPOSED to add salt.  Now I see there are two sides to the issue.

And, maybe, just maybe, this solves the question as to why I can't keep anachris or hyacinth - or ANY plants - alive in my pond, which is salted, but plants do just fine in the other tubs around the yard, none of which have salt added.

Offline El Jefe

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2008, 12:29:05 PM »
Our Medical students belong to this organization and recommended I check this out.... Man I may have to fish these bad boys out!

http://www.wemjournal.org/wmsonline/?request=get-document&issn=1080-6032&volume=014&issue=02&page=0101
… The soul is dyed the color of it’s thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice, Day by day, what you choose, what you think and what you do is WHO you become. Your integrity is your destiny, it is the light that guides your way……


Offline Joyce

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2008, 12:39:21 PM »
Thanks Andy...GREAT info!  O0
( I love learning! )  8)

Glad I didn't sustain any permanent injuries! :o
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline Vickie

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2008, 04:44:32 PM »
I have never salted my ponds or added any chemicals. I hardly ever loose a fish. I found one last year laying outside the pond is all. I have been extremely lucky is all I can say. I have some big koi in an 800 gallon pond but I use 3 filters in that pond in the summer. One is a vegatable filter. I just leave them alone. And I use a lot of plants in my other koi pond. Fingers crossed here. I do use Koi Clay. I really think it helps your water and your fish and keeps algae down.

Offline Jerry

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2008, 04:58:01 PM »
Me too Vickie. I do use Koi Clay rarely, but not sure it does anything.
My clarity is fine and so are the fish!
Jerry
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Offline Vickie

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2008, 05:09:33 PM »
Jerry I think the Koi Clay helps make the fish healthy, and helps the developement of your fish. I had a pond last year and the water was black. It was terrible. I was afriad I would loose my koi. I am sure it was the silt on the bottom of the pond. After using koi clay several times it cleared up, and my fish did great all summer. I have already been putting koi clay in my ponds. I have 10 of them. So far so good.

Offline Joyce

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2008, 05:50:18 PM »
Koi Clay has worked wonders for me too. @O@
Gene sent me (overnight!) some when the local vineyard sprayed the grapes with some kind of poisonous fungicide (on a windy day  ::) ) which drifted into my pond and started to kill my fish. (Gene and I discussed the situation on the phone) I added a couple tablespoons of the Koi Clay and within an hour, the fish stopped gasping, stopped swimming lethargically and started acting quite normal. The Koi Clay immediately absorbed the toxins in the water. I believe Koi Clay and Gene saved the lives of my fish. O0 8) :clap:

I also believe it reduces algae growth too. :)
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline Vickie

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2008, 05:55:55 PM »
Yes I agree. I think it works wonders and I add it all summer. It also is a natural product. I will always use it. And this year I bought it off ebay at a good price.

Offline karen J

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2008, 06:24:58 PM »
I used to be a big advocate of salt. It has it's uses, it can kill some bugs and prevent koi from dying in quarantine from acute nitrite toxicity. I used to salt my koi quarantine tanks until the filters got cycled. But it can be easily overused, or used incorrectly (esp dosage errors), and that can cause problems. Salt used like "chicken soup" is definitely a band aid and does nothing to solve the underlying cause of what you're trying to treat. It is better than toxic organo phosphate pesticides when trying to treat non-super costia outbreaks. In a pond, it's a major pain trying to undo a salt treatment before all the plants start to die. The real chicken soup for fish is simply good water.

Unfortunately, my water has .1% salt and high pH "out of the hose". There are certain plants (Water Hawthorne, Bogbean, Marestail, etc) that don't do well in this water, and I've never figured out whether it was the salt or the alkalinity. The Marestail in a little "rainwater only" pond does just fine.


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Offline tinkster

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2008, 07:26:55 PM »
I am a big believer in koi clay and water changes.  Typically spring is hard on my fish, not sure what I am doing wrong, guess wehre it goes from cold to very hot so quick ??? but the fish lay on the button etc.   I throw the koi clay in and very quickly they are swimming around normal and the pond seems to stabilise and get a good balance.  Last year my big koi had something on it.. I had lost quiet a few goldfish over  the winter with the first warm up.  I posted here and received a bunch of good advice but decide to do nothing but koi clay and water changes from the bottom and this is very unpopular but I dont add dechlor, never have.  I think the small amounts of chlorine help to heal maybe???  anyway  they all survived just fine.. one of the goldfish had a ulcer that took out one of his eyes totally.. just a socket and he is healedl and fine and happy as the rest.  I believe in it!

tinkster

Offline El Jefe

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2008, 09:10:53 PM »
Hmm we digress...... Joyce, Bonnie et al, In the grand schemes of things it is difficult for me to even broach this subject. I have enormous respect for both of as you have both been a wealth of knowledge and bring so much to this forum. We have all been the beneficiaries of your wisdom and I for one appreciate it. One would hope in an ideal world that good natured jibes and the occasional disagreement would be taken in the manner it was intended. Two seasoned pro's such as yourselves bring much to this forum even when you are dynamically opposed.  Lots to be learned from both of you. I appreciate all that you have done for me and all that I have learned from you........ You two would be a tough team to beat if you teamed up.... O0

Andy
… The soul is dyed the color of it’s thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice, Day by day, what you choose, what you think and what you do is WHO you become. Your integrity is your destiny, it is the light that guides your way……


Offline Jerry

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2008, 10:29:41 PM »
Jonna:

I erred, I agree, but I did not know realize it was a PM, it was sent to me because I could not spot it on the forum. (it still was a "baiting" letter)
A few more of these incidents and I am ready to eat 600 tee shirts and say adiós. Sean doesn't need this, nor do I!
I will delete the posts!  A good suggestion.
I am still on a nasty medication and sure don't care to be upset.

Okay I have deleted posts including my own.  Now I am sure I will get mail  complaining about my choices.  We canot please everyone! (over 800 members)
This forum exists because of me and Sean!  No one has to pay a cent! You never heard one complaint about that! Not one!  There are expenses!. Remember the old forum AWGS?  They asked for contributions all the time. I even sent them $5.00 against my better judgement.
It's late and I am upset as hell.
If you need a perfect guy here, you didn't get one!
I edited this at 4:00 am, not happy at all.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 04:12:42 AM by Jerry »
Jerry
Northridge, California  
Zone 10


"Any women that tries to be the equal of a man, lacks ambition!"

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Offline Jonna

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2008, 10:49:41 PM »
Hey sweetie, don't sweat it.  I was just coming back to delete my own post and just send you a PM.   You beat me to it and I'm glad.

Hugs,   o(:-)

Offline Jerry

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Re: Why .......
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2008, 10:53:44 PM »
Thank you Jonna
Jerry
Northridge, California  
Zone 10


"Any women that tries to be the equal of a man, lacks ambition!"

American Ponders Watergardening
American Ponders Pond and Koi Forum

Offline Jerry

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  • "An analog guy trapped in a digital world."
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Re: Why .......
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2008, 04:01:07 AM »
Guess who is wide awake at this hour?  4:00 am here in California.   {nono} I hate this!
Jerry
Northridge, California  
Zone 10


"Any women that tries to be the equal of a man, lacks ambition!"

American Ponders Watergardening
American Ponders Pond and Koi Forum

 

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