Author Topic: Beginning to panic. Help please.  (Read 1632 times)

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Offline Ruthie

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Beginning to panic. Help please.
« on: April 23, 2008, 10:49:52 PM »
It's been about 2 weeks? 3 weeks?  since we set up the new pond.  We were given my aunt's above ground pond set up and her very large goldfish.  All the fish seemed to be doing fine until about two days ago when one of the really big comets seemed lethargic.  I caught her and examined her...some scales were missing from one side (I assume from spawning and/or from being caught and handled.)  It looked like a secondary infection had set in, so I QT'd her and medicated.  Within hours...I lost her.  Then the next day I found Zebra, a large 6 year old shubunkin floating.  There was nothing amiss!!  No signs of disease or parasites.  But then I am been blessed by a mostly trouble-free pond experience so far.  In other words...unless there were obvious signs of disease...I might miss it.

I checked the water with a test kit...nitrites were zero, nitrates zero.  I had just cleaned the big pondmaster prefilter and set up a trickle filter with Louisiana irises (they grow happily bareroot in the trickle filter rocks.)  Nevertheless, I did a 10% water change. 

Today I noticed that two of the other fish were not eating and seeming lethargic. 

I called my aunt for some background information.  This is the seond time their pond has been completely drained/refilled in less than six months.  Both times she said the water was "bad."  I didn't press her for exactly what bad meant...but it was in the context of fish being overcrowded, fish dying, etc.  She decreased her numbers last time, but this time (when we disassembled the pond)  the water was "bad" because two 14 inch plecostemous had not overwintered and had rotted in the pond.  I can attest that the water was foul.  Even the lilies smelled awful and had to be washed before I put them back in the pond. 

I am wondering now If I should repot all the lilies and discard old pots, soil and rocks, in case they are harboring disease.

Also...my aunt had only a prefilter running...no additional biological filter.  I think she maintained the water previously, but her health problems have prevented her from doing so recently.  But I know at one time she had 40-50 fish in there, including two 18 inch long koi.  So, it's not hard to do the math and figure that stress may be a factor here. 

Late this afternoon the largest of the fantails was acting poorly.  Very lethargic, staying at the surface (but not gasping for air or anything) just kind of moving in slow motion.  By evening...I had lost her, too.

Two of the fish had severe swim bladder problems...treated, but with remaining permanant damage.  One stays at the bottom all the time...only fluttering up to eat.  One would habitually swim upsidedown or appear dead.  Today he was the other one that seemed especially off.  I went to check the pond a few minutes ago in my nightgown with a flashlight (because I am making myself sick with worry) and I found him dead.  I wasn't actually surprised by that...he really stressed during the move.

Help!!!!  What am I missing?  I have backtracked.  The only new things are:

 -- the water change (I did one on both ponds and on the aquarium in the house, so I know my dechlor is ok.)  I was probably a little heavy handed with the dechlor given the fact that I was paranoid.  I was thinking along the lines of toxins, but I guess if it were something toxic that had gotten into the pond, all the fish would probably be affected.

--the trickle filter...but it's just rocks and irises in pots on a plastic shelf.  I have used other parts of this shelf in the other pond, so I know it isn't toxic.

--I added plants from my original pond.  I know all ponds have their own "bugs" but I have not had sick fish EVER. 

--I added a few lily divisions.  I took those out tonight and put them back in whiskey barrels...just in case.

Most of the fish appear just fine.  They are eating, swimming normally.  They are not used to me, so they don't swarm the surface at feeding time.  I wish they did.  I can tell with one look if one of the fish in the orignal pond is missing or injured or "off."  These sort of strike the fish food and dart to the bottom...so it's hard to assess them.

Some stats:

The pond is 11.5 x 8 and 2 feet deep.  Currently there are about a dozen goldies.  The smallest is a young comet who is about four inches.  The rest are 8-12 inches long.  The fantails are probably 6-8 inches.  The oldest ones are 4-6 years old.

I have lilies, pitsia, elodea and hyacinth...and louisiana irises in the filter.  They are planted in the same clay I use for all my other lilies.  My aunt had some of that soil-less potting medium for aquatics...I put one division in that, just to see how they would do.

There is a 950 gph pondmaster pump with associated double tray prefilter.  I have it attached to a fountain which goes into the trickle filter.  It's ugly, but functional temporarily while I construct the biological filter...probably a skippy or an external barrel filter.   I know there is no ammonia or anything else containing N in the water.  Besides the water test showing zero, the hyacinth and the pitsia are anemic and pale.  Everything else ..pH and hardness, etc...all normal.  I don't tinker with pH anyway.  Neither did my aunt and we are using the same city water source.

Given the abundance of baby fish, it is possible that they may have spawned.  (Or the baby fish come from the original pond via the plants. )

I clean the prefilter every couple of days...I kind of freaked out when I saw bloodworms in there...those are ok, right?

What am I missing?  I really don't want to lose anymore :'(  but I don't see anything I can treat.  I examined each fish after they died...their gills all looked dark red...no signs of anything parasitic or caustic.  I even checked to make sure they hadn't eaten a rock (I saw that online.)  Their slime coats were fine...no signs of trauma or illness anywhere.



I am just sick about this.  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2008, 11:55:11 PM by Ruthie »

Offline Esther

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2008, 04:23:47 AM »
I'm no help. Just will say your fish will love the blood worms.

Offline joeyb5980

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2008, 05:26:18 AM »
I'm so sorry Ruthie!  I know how frustrating it is to try to do everything you can, and still see the fish dying off one by one while you helplessly watch... I am sorry that I have no advice considering everything you have already done, but I would say that you will get some expert opinions that may help, thanks to your very detailed post.  Just wanted to say I'm sorry to hear about your losses, and I hope you don't lose anymore!
Joey

Offline Kat

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2008, 05:47:06 AM »
Sorry to hear about your troubles!  If it was me, I'd add airstones just in case they need more oxygen.  I always have a dual outlet airpump in a plastic box to keep it from getting wet ready for this type of situation.  Good luck & hope it works out OK.
Kat

There is never enough room for all of the water lilies that I want ;-)

Offline Julles

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2008, 07:22:16 AM »


I was gonna say, test your water, but you mentioned you already did that.

I really don't know, either, but to me, it sounds like the "bugs" you alluded to, meaning, the fish have had so many changes over a short time, they just up and die.  It's like, when you bring home a new fish, and it's healthy and fine and eating, but three days later, out of the blue, it dies.  Not acclimated to the environment. 

It could be that your system simply is too new, and hasn't had time to build up the "pondiness" that will come over time.  Like, when you set up a new aquarium, they tell you to have it running for a couple of weeks before adding fish. 

But one month ago, I  completley changed my pond, enlarged it, new liner, new water, everythng.  Didn't loose a fish (except the one who jumped out spawning).  And just Monday, I completly drained and refilled the pond with new, salt-free water, which was a shock to what the fish were used to, and, so far, everyone's doing just fine.

Is there something in the water in your part of town, that is different from what the fish had at your aunt's house?






Offline Ruthie

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2008, 08:32:25 AM »
Thanks eveeryone. :'(  I was actually afraid to go out to the ponds this morning.   But everybody is eating, spalshing me with their tails and swimming just fine. 

I told my husband as we set up the pond that given the stress factor and the ickiness of the water they were coming out of it would be miraculous if we didn't lose some.  I really thought we were in the clear after all this time.

My aunt and I live in the same town...same water. 

What about food changes?  I have changed their brand of food. 

Offline miguynmkoi

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2008, 08:41:22 AM »
It's a mystery to me, Ruthie.  I'm sorry you're having this situation.  I don't know the answer you need but it sure sounds like you did everything right. 

Offline Joyce

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2008, 08:58:04 AM »
Is there any chance pesticides or lawn fertilizer got into the pond, either from overspray, drifted spray or rain water washing it in?

Also, do they do mosquito spraying in your area?
If they did, you may have pesticide poisoning.
When they spray the grapes around here, I have had fish kills in my little pondsai.
Koi Clay saved the day for me.

Never hurts to addmore aeration, I would add at least one airstone.  8)
Peace to all  ... Joyce



Breast Cancer Survivor

“Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature.
It will never fail you.”
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Offline Ruthie

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2008, 09:20:34 AM »
They do spray for mosquitoes.  I called and found out when was the last spray...it was about 2 weeks ago.  No one has sprayed anything else...and the pond is above ground so nothing could overflow into it.

My dad has an acre+ earthen pond with bass and he pointed out the fact that we had a large rainfall a few days ago.  It was about 2 inches, cold, complete with hail.  He was watching the bass pond for destratification.  Can destratification occur in a pond this small? 

I am jetting back outside to aerate some more. 

Thanks everyone!

Offline tranquility

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2008, 10:13:10 AM »
Not really sure whats going on...but, just from what you say if they were kept in poor conditions thru the winter and they are coming into spring with low immunities already....maybe just the additional stress of moving again has triggered something...my guess would be parasites....but, of course thats just a guess...from what I understand parasites and such are in the water all the time---its only when the fish are stressed and weakened that the parasites become the real problem ....so with dirty conditions thru the winter(the one time when things really do need to be as clean as possible), 2 total water changes, and the move---I'm sure these guys immunities are pretty low.....hope someone can give you a definite answer....
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Offline Johns

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2008, 03:45:26 PM »
I did not see if any mention was made above re PH.  Wide PH swings can kill fish overnight.  Also I assume that if you are on a municipal water supply that you added the proper chlorine reduction chemicals. Other things that kill fish overnight are lack of dissolved oxygen, either through too many fish or not enough aeration, or too many plants that can affect oxygen levels.

Offline Julles

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 11:21:43 AM »
Well, now I know how you feel.  This morning, one of my large white-and-red-headed orandas was dead.  No reason.  Fat and happy and eating yesterday.  Red gills, no wounds on it, no reason, but just simply dead today.

Offline Ruthie

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 02:49:17 PM »
I am so sorry Julles.  I am really sorry for your loss.  It makes no sense!



I ran the aeration wide open last night.  I set up an additional pump and fountain to churn up the water.  I set the trickle filter to fire hydrant force.  I took out some of the plants, just in case not enough O2 exchange was going on.  So aside from waer splashing out of the pond, everything was ok today.  No dead fish (so far.)  Even the one I was a little worried about was eating and swimming around normally. 

Fingers crossed.

Offline Esther

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 03:55:45 PM »
LOL @ fire hydrant force. Wonder if those fishies have any idea what we go through for them.

Offline tinkster

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Re: Beginning to panic. Help please.
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 07:28:25 PM »
sure hope you have it under control.. nothing worse to me than not knowing what to do or done everything ya can and just have to watch.

tinkster

 

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