required depth of fish pond in southeast Arizona?

[JimMcD in SVAZ]

Hello All,

New to American Ponders.  Kept a sucessful pond in central Pennsylvania, before moving to southeast Arizona this past Summer.  Want to start a pond here.  The ground here has a lot of caliche, making digging a real "cussin and spittin" chore.  So, how deep should a pond be for goldfish?  How deep for koi?  Sierra Vista is at about 4,500 ft elevation.

Thanks,
Jim

[Jerry]

Welcome to "AP"
It must get pretty chilly at that elevation.  I think Goldies will tolerate most conditions.
There will be some good answers following.

[Reedman]

JimMcD in SVAZ ,

I don't keep koi so I can't answer your question. 

Where did you live in PA?  I live in Lemoyne.

Reedman

[casey]

Jim,

I live in Tucson.  You are lucky that you have a wonderful pond store near you in Hereford.  It is called Mountain View Koi Fish & Nursery owned by Curt & Lisa Ogren.  They're super neat people, have a great pond store and Koi and have a lot of knowledge of your area.  Their number is 520-378-3710.  They don't have a web site.  If you need more info, you may contact me.  I do not have any stake in this store and do not profit from this endorsement.  I just think you ought to utilize this resource in your area.

Casey

[PondmaninAL]

Welcome to AP, Jim. Be sure to check out the plant exchange section during the Spring and Summer. There are always some great plants to be had.

[Esther]

Welcome to the forum. Hope you like it here. I don't suppose you have pictures of your other pond. We love pix. LOL Like a bunch of kids.

What is caliche? Must be some sort of hard stuff judging by your language. LOL.

I am not a professional or expert but have kept a pond, with at times Wakin,  regular goldfish, pond comets, fantail goldfish, but now only Koi for about 7 years. I live in Michigan so we of course freeze from November to maybe April. My pond is 10' x 13' X 30" to 25". I have never lost a fish due to conditions, parasites or illness. They have been taken by herons and 2 managed to get up into my bog but couldn't get out and died there. My Koi are not show Koi at all, just 11 mutts measuring from 8" to maybe 20". Then there are 3 little spawn guys from this summer. The professionals will insist your pond has to be at least 4' deep but mine seem fine. I make a job of keeping good water quality and keeping it clean and filter, filter, filter. Oh and my pond is all DIY so have no suggestions for filter and equipment etc. If DIY is your thing, check out the DIY sub forum here and see some of my and other member's stuff. Also, be sure to take advantage of the other subforums as your interest is probably different from mine.

[casey]

Jim,

Casey here again.  We have a swimming pool to pond conversion.  It turned out really great.  I am a member of the Tucson Watergardeners.  We meet from Feb-Oct and recess while ponds are pretty dormant in Nov-Jan.  I would tell you our meeting schedule but we have just changed it, which will be good for you if you care to come up a couple times.  We will have 2-3 meetings this year in the afternoon at a member's pond.  That is new from our old schedule of the 4th Thursday evening of the month at the Jr League Building.  Also, speaking of plants in another member's reply to you, we have a very big and wonderful plant sale the third Sunday of May.  Though the plants aren't free, they are plentiful and the money goes to a good cause.  We give grants to schools, parks & other non-profits for watergardens to be used for education or meditation (like the cancer center).  The plants at our sale are all donated by members and so are AZ hardened, so to speak.  One nice thing is that you can get a whole bunch that should do well in your area instantly. 

I am also a member of the So AZ Koi Club though I'm not real active in that group.  I am really a watergardener who happens to have some Koi.

In the meantime if you ever come up to Tucson, send me a private email (offline) and I will be happy to show you what we have.  I am not on this site daily but I do check my email several times every day.  Our home is convenient for you to reach no matter where you would be going in Tucson.  My husband & I are both retired and very longtime Tucsonans.  Sharing ponds is always fun and I am also experimenting with growing tropicals in dixie cups (based on Sean's tutorial) and propagating other plants for our May sale.  The yard is somewhat of a plant zoo.

Casey

[Desertponder]

Hi Jim and welcome to AP. I would not think that winter temps would be a huge concern for you there. I would be more concerned about having adequate depth to accommodate the intense AZ heat during the summer months.
I know over the years I can recall ponders in AZ stressing over their ponds being too shallow and water temps becoming quite warm. I would think you would want at least one area of the pond to be 3 to 4 ft. deep.

[tinkster]

welcome!   we love pictures so the MORE the better

tinkster

[bunny56lbc]

Welcome to AP ! We'd love to see some picture's , before & after would be Great !
Of you're pond .

bonnie

[LeeAnne151]

Welcome, I live in Oregon now but grew up in Phoenix. I feel your pain on the Caliche. Not a word I hear often. Makes me homesick.

The reason that koi breeders recommend ponds to be four feet deep is because the fish use different muscles to swim vertically than horizontally. With a shallow pond they don't exercise all of their muscles equally. Many of us would not notice the difference when we look at them but experts can tell when fish are not fully developed.

Water temps are also a factor as well.

You might want to rent a baby bobcat to use to dig. DH rented one recently for $125 to use to lift our basalt columns into place but the scoop on the end had big teeth and I'm sure would make short work of digging even in caliche.

[Julles]

Welcome, Jim.  And we will be looking forward to seeing those PA pics.

LeeAnne said what I was going to say, which is there are various reasons for pond depths.  One is to keep temperatures stable, another is to keep temperatures relatively cool in summer and warm in winter, and another is to allow fish to swim up and down, because of the reasons she stated.

I have always heard that a koi pond should be at least 36" deep, and 48" is better, with 8' being great.  That being said, mine is 30" (we hit "gumbo" at that depth, and the guys just couldn't dig through it.  So I have one small area that's 36", and the rest is 30.") 

I live in Houston, and our summers get up to 100*, but are mostly 85*-95*, and winters can get down to 20* but are mostly 40*-50*.       

Remember to make the sides go straight down, and an overhang is a good idea, too, as both will help prevent varmits from catching your fish and also keep the fish from jumping out.  I ended up building screen covers from PVC pipe and chicken wire, spray painted black, to cover the pond.

[Julles]

Oh, I love that white and black spotted one - really nice, distinct colors.

Were you able to take your fish to Arizona, or did you have to leave them behind?

[LeeAnne151]

Yes, caliche made me homesick. When I left Arizona in 1985 I never dreamed it would be permanently. I miss the desert. I miss the sunshine. I miss year 'round gardening.

[LeeAnne151]

The friends and adult beverages I could do. Not sure I could get anyone to do manual labor though. I'm not so good at it myself. DH doesn't have my love for Arizona and stays home most of the time when I visit. Many of my highschool friends still live in Phoenix and so does my mother so I try to visit as much as I can. My mother is actually in a nursing home in Youngtown and doesn't know me when I visit so it is really the friends.....

We have had various forum members from Arizona. I met two one year when I was in town but neither posts anymore.  I think Lynn in Mesa still posts occasionally.

[JimMcD in SVAZ]

LeeAnne,

      No manual labor?  Well, thanks for nuthin...

Be well, be safe,
Jim

[landey1230]

Welcome to AZ and AP.  I live in west AZ.  I just began to redo my pond (pond redo under Construction and Filtration).  My pond was originally 16 in deep with koi.  However, those things grow very quickly.  I'm now rebuilding and making it deeper.  I plan on making it 3ft deep with ledges for plants.  By the way, AZ is a great place to grow lilies.  Good luck.

[Johns]

LeeAnne,

Your yard is a showplace of gardening and SW Ariz is too hot for the beautiful roses and the huge number of plant varieties that can be grown in your area.  I fully undestand your attraction for the land of your youth, but where you are now is wonderful!  When I return to the area to visit my son, I look forward to seeing you again.

You are right on target re: your advice regarding pool depth for koi.

[LeeAnne151]

Why, thanks. I look forward to seeing you again too.   Maybe Mikey will be in town at the same time.

I did grow roses in Phoenix. I don't have a scanner or I'd dig out the old photos. Rosa banksia is very common in the Valley and requires little care. Too bad it doesn't smell good. My favorite hybrid tea was 'Double Delight'. Gets too much fungus to grow here.