Author Topic: spring cleaning help. (Read 2369 times)

reddad35 · « **on:** February 07, 2009, 02:16:42 PM »

Spring is close enough to at least mention. I was wondering what the appropriate time to do a spring pond cleaning was. Does the water temp have to be at a certain temp to do this? I have koi in this pond up to 13"'s in length. I am worried about stressing them. I need to know if there is a better time to stress them than others. Do you do it when they are barely moving or wait until they are moving about and eating good?

We are having a heat wave as we speak. By heat wave we are in the 60's and all the ice and snow has melted. I can see the bottom of my 5 1/2' deep pond. I wish the water was this clear in the summer. By some of the tips I have learned on here I hope to keep it this way. When I walked out today I noticed one of my 13" koi had parrished. As I have read on here it normally happens to your favorite and it held true for me too. I called him Blue. He/She was a butterfly.( I don't know the exact species, But beautiful with huge fins.) I noticed I have a build up of leaves on the bottom and am worried that the warmer temps coming will cause problems with rotting soon. Would it be too much of a stress to my fish if I try to skim net the leaves from the bottom today? (I don't have a vacuum) The fish are sluggish and barely moving while the water temp is around the high 30's. I didn't realize I had that many leaves in my pond due to the water clarity or lack thereof in the fall. We had a couple of storms come through that wreaked havoc on the trees in the area as well as my pond.

I have been running an aerator all winter about 1' above the bottom of the pond. I shut my falls down for the winter also.

I don't know the cause of the death but would like to try to nip any more in the bud.

I have an 8' round hard sided pool. The pool is 2 1/2 foot high. I used this as a temp home for my fish when I cleaned the pond in the later part of the summer. Is it safe to move the fish to this now or wait till it warms up? I am asking these questions because I have no clue. I should have researched these questions earlier, as this is my first cold weather pond but I failed to do this. I hope I can still catch up on some required items for cold weather ponds before its too late.

What are your professional or semi professional opinions on timing of a spring cleanup?

Thanks for any help you might have.

Jim

Kittyzee · « **Reply #1 on:** February 07, 2009, 02:25:55 PM »

I am by no means professional or even semi professional but I live in Ohio, probably close in zone to your temps. We got up in the 50's today but my pond is still mostly ice covered, but thawing. I don't have koi either. But with my goldfish I wouldn't even consider doing the kind of cleaning you are talking about until the weather and the water temperature was up around 50 degrees. I may be wrong, but then I don't fuss with all the clean-up that a lot of people do. My fish are healthy, my water is clear and I don't need another full-time job.

Julles · « **Reply #2 on:** February 07, 2009, 04:28:31 PM »

I'm also no expert, but my guess is that there would be less stress on the fish if you do it now, while they are cold and semi-dormant, or at least sluggish. Be SURE you have aeration on the temp holding tank, and that it's covered to prevent them from jumping, and that the temperature in both holding tank and pond are the same.

This will be the first year I don't break down my pond and completely clean it. It's not dirty, and I don't want to stress the fish. But if you have lots of muck on the bottom of yours, I can understand wanting to clean it. (Can't say I understand wanting to get into 30* water, though.

Brrrrr!)

I feel for you about loosing the fish. I have one who came down with dropsy, and he's still swimming, a week later, but I know he will probably die. And, yes, he's my favorite. I also called him "Blue" (among other similar names).

I said I'm not breaking down the pond, but I do want to do a substantial water change. I don't know why the koi got dropsy, but the disease is caused by bacteria attacking the kidneys. Perhaps there is a buildup of bacteria in the water, and if I do a partial change, maybe I can get rid of some of it.

reddad35 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 07, 2009, 07:53:30 PM »

Thanks Kittyzee and Julles we are 50/50 so far. Hey go look at Blue on the same titled post in the koi corner. I got him in july at 4 inches. He was pushing 13 upon croaking.

Actually Julles there is no muck at all. It is simply leaves and alot of them from the storms we had in late fall. Ask Ky Kim she got them too. I need to know if it is safer to get the leaves out now rather than later when the fish wake up.

reddad35 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 07, 2009, 09:59:37 PM »

Heres blue.. He was beautiful

Joyce · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2009, 06:28:04 AM »

Reddad, you posted this in the Chit Chat Forum.
If you had posted it in the Pond Chat Forum it probably would have more responses.
A lot more people visit the Pond Chat than Chit Chat.

You don't have to put us all down, get nasty and disrespectful us because we are not responding.
For many of us, it's the middle of the winter, and we really do not know how to help you.

And once again, if you had posted this is the correct forum, you would have had more responses...
that and a sweeter attitude can get you anythng you want. In other words: MIND YOUR MANNERS!

Right now I'm NOT giving you advice because your nasty attitude has pissed me off.
I could give you a WORLD of advice, a lot of it plain old common sense,
but OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I am going to talk about my favorite hot tea.

The Chit Chat forum is for discussing whatever we want...NOT for Pond Chat.
Get over yourself and your nasty attitude, pay attention to where you are posting a topic,
and maybe more people may feel like helping you.

reddad35 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 08, 2009, 10:20:13 AM »

You are right Joyce. I am sorry for the previous message I deleted. I simply am scared to death about my fish and their health. I have begun to clean my pond even though I had no response to whether it was appropriate or not. Joyce I posted this in the right thread. When no one was going there to read or reply, I came to chit chat where everyone seems to be these days. I did get 2 responses here while I had none in the "appropriate" posting spot. I have found out that the problem is dropsy. I have multiple koi infected. My large koi have this. It seems it is at different stages for each. Pretty depressed and I blew up when receiving no responses. Again I am sorry for posting in such a huff. I actually responded to the tea post and the others that I belittled in my post. I do think however it is a great thing when on a pond forum someone would respond to someone in need when that post arises rather than skip it and talk about tea. If I went to the tea forum I really don't think everyone would drop what they are doing and respond to a random koi question. I do however feel it is important for all experienced koi ponders to actually try to respond to someone in need. I would appreciate your thoughts Joyce. I was grasping for any thoughts I could get. I see that you responded to my post by telling me you would not respond. I think that is cold of you. You could of scolded me and still given a response. You did say you had toughts on this matter. My koi are dying and you chose to say you did not like my attitude so let them die in a round about way. I have transferred my fish to a holding pool and have begun cleaning the pond. I don't know if its a good idea or not but with fish dying and no help from the ponders I have done what I thought was best. Hope it works out.

Kittyzee · « **Reply #7 on:** February 08, 2009, 11:28:52 AM »

Sorry to disagree Jim, but somebody DID respond. It was me. And yes, I am no professional, but I ain't stupid either. Common sense tells me not to clean a pool in the dead middle of winter because you're freakin' out about losing a fish. For that I have sympathy, but doing something just to be doing something, isn't going to fix it, even if it's wrong. I believe goldfish to be a bit tougher than koi, so now that you know it's dropsy is cleaning your pond going to help? Sorry, I've stayed silent long enough when somebody yanks my chain. If you want professional advice, then PAY FOR IT!

Joyce · « **Reply #8 on:** February 08, 2009, 12:48:41 PM »

I can't believe YOU are calling me cold Jim.

After the way you talked to everyone here...not JUST me...which wasn't just freezing cold behavior but NASTY...you expect people to be warm?
Excuse me...EXCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSE me???!!!!!!!!!!!! Are we both in the real world where everyone is responsible for themselves?
Or are we in the woeismeI'mavictimallthetimeandwon'tberesponsibleformyownfoolishmistakesandbadmannersandnowstillangrygivemeadviceandbefriendlytomeorelseI'mwhinesomemoreworld.

I can't top what Luanne said, can't say it better.

By the way, I post topics here a LOT that get absolutely no responses...and I don't have a breakdown about it.

reddad35 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 08, 2009, 01:19:09 PM »

I actually thanked you Kitty/Luann. I do appreciate your advice.

Joyce you said you had a word of advice for this but because I complained no one was offering help you said you would keep this info to yourself. I didn't talk about everyone here. I said I needed help and was a little ticked that on a pond forum the only thing anyone had to talk about was things other than ponds. I am responsible for myself and I have taken action. I apologized to you and all. You are being cold for having information that you choose to keep to yourself because you are mad at me. I would try to help everyone if I had an answer no matter how I felt about them. You, not so much.

I still have fish that have no signs of this and felt a cleaning, even though its cold might remove this parasite that is infecting them. I took this route because I got 2 answers. One saying do it and another saying wait. I do not have the money to spend on proffesional advice so I thought this question would be a good one for experienced ponders. Maybe someone had gone through this. Maybe they have heard of this. I researched every post looking for this topic and did not find any.
I posted in the appropriate area and had no views much less responses. I posted in chit chat because that is where everyone is these days.

I lost another koi today and have one hovering sideways. I thank you for your non help Joyce. Although I was rough on the tounge, you are rough on the heart.

Please respond by telling me I am whining again. That will top the cake.

reddad35 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 08, 2009, 02:44:38 PM »

Round 2

Kittyzee · « **Reply #11 on:** February 08, 2009, 03:55:56 PM »

Reddad, for heaven's sake stop cleaning the pond and start treating your fish. Since you say it's dropsy you would know that pond cleaning isn't going to make any difference. By the time you noticed that your fish had buldging eyes and scales sticking out it is pretty much too late. But I'm not sure about the rest of them. But stirring up more bacteria when they are already stressed wouldn't be my idea of helping them. It only took me a few minutes to Google and try to find an answer to your problem.

I'm sorry you are losing your pets, check out KoiVet and see if you can do anything they recommend there.

reddad35 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 08, 2009, 04:36:56 PM »

Thanks Kitty.

I actually only noticed that it was dropsy upon netting my fish while emptying the water. Blue did not show the signs of this as my other fish have. They are bloated, no pine cone effect or eye bugging. I appreciate the personal message you sent. I have noticed that my fish are all but doomed after reading it. It is Sunday here and no one was open. I will go in tomorrow and ask a local as to what I might be able to do from here. The article you sent me directed me to destroy the infected fish. I hope someone has a cure.

Jerry · « **Reply #13 on:** February 08, 2009, 05:20:18 PM »

The right forum sure helps. I have not had responses right away and was dissapointed , only to suddenly get many responses. Sometimes it just takes time.

I do pitch Tee Shirts on the pond forum for obvious reasons. More viewers more, responses.
The chit Chat forum is more logical for tees.
Let us all stay cool.

Kittyzee · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2009, 05:27:19 PM »

Eeek, I wouldn't go destroying your fish Jim!!!

I'm an optimist to the extreme and would try everything else first. That article was to inform you of the possibilities of your fish kill, and to put off cleaning your pond which is probably NOT your problem. Hopefully, you can find someone locally who can instruct you about quarantine and medications. Fish already live in a bacterial laden environment (as do we) and when their immune systems become compromised (like ours) they become sick.

Let us know what you find out from your local fish person

reddad35 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2009, 05:55:10 PM »

Thank you Kitty, I really have no plans on killing my fish, it is what the article said to do at this point. The article actually said many times it is beyond treatment based on symptoms and the stages. I will keep you in the loop as far as my local responses. I started cleaning my pond this morning when I had only received 1 yes and 1 no response. Its too late to not clean the pond since I have already done this all day today. Pressure washed it all.

Julles · « **Reply #16 on:** February 09, 2009, 05:05:28 AM »

Jim, I hadn't realized you were loosing fish - multiple fish. I sure am sorry about that. I share your pain, as I have the one with dropsy who I know will die soon (haven't seen him in two days). And yesterday, there was one dead, one who had been "perfectly healthy" the day before, and just popped up dead, not a mark on him. A beautiful bright white fish with bold black and orange spots. I got him to replace another uniquely bold white fish, who also up and died for no apparent reason, about a year ago.

Your Blue was gorgeous, especially with that line of horizontal scales along his sides.

But I'm not convinced the problem is dropsy. Yes, in some of your posted pics the fish look fat, most notably pushing out from the bottom (but that's hard to tell from the pics). But just being fat is not necessarily dropsy. In dropsy, as I understand, the fish puffs out from the sides, and it always includes protrusion of the scales, like a pine cone, as the fluid builds up inside the fish and the body swells. Also, dropsy is not contagious, so it would be highly unusual for several fish to contract it at the same time.

Either way, SOMEthing is killing your fish, and you've got to do something. Just need to figure out what it is.

In my research on dropsy, it's bacteria that attack the kidneys that causes the malady. That bacteria has to live somewhere, and I'm guessing it's in the water. Now, above, there was the mention of "strirring up bacteria" by messing around with the water, and that makes sense. But it also makes sense to me that, if the bacteria is swimming around in the water (and there may be even more, if you have dead fish polluting the water), that a partial water change, or even removing the fish to a whole new, clean tank, would reduce the exposure to bacteria.

Remember, this is coming from someone in Houston, the almost-tropical Gulf Coast, where winters are moderate, and, for example, today's temp is 74*

And yes, any of that is going to stress an already stressed fish.

It's a quandry. I really don't the answer. Either let nature take its course and hope for the best, or take action, whether it's the right acvtion or not. I didn't find a lot of KoiVet, other than injections of an antibacterial medication that I don't have access to, nor any way of administering (and that's even assuming I could catch the fish in the first place!), and, from everything I've read, once they puff up, it's too late anyway.

On my thread about "OMG - Dropsy" in the Pond Chat forum, I believe I posted a suggestion I got from the expert in our (Houston) Lone Star Koi Club. He suggested salting the water, to help draw excess moisture out of the fish, along with injections and warmer temps. Go look up that post for correct details.

Good luck. Man, it's bad enough loosing a loved fish; I sure would be sick if multiples of my fish were dying. Sorry.

Joyce · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2009, 08:08:09 AM »

Jim, I did give you advice, I agreed with what Julles told you.
Even said I couldn't add any more to it.
So quit playing the victim here. Don't blame me for your mistakes.
I'm not killing your fish...YOU are.
I don't owe you ANYthing and there's nothing I can say that hasn't already been said to save your fish.

But what I do owe anybody reading, is some tips on using common sense, like others have advised too.

1. Don't mess with your pond in the middle of the winter.

You'll kill your fish by stirring up all the levels of water stratification (layered temps), and bad bacteria.

2. Use your available resources with logic. One is, if you are going to use this forum, post into the correct forums. Start by going to the main forum page.
http://www.americanponders.com/forum/index.php
Look at the forum post count. Then determine which forums are getting the most visitors.
Read the descriptions of the forums under the forum headings. Such as Pond Chat: Feel free to talk about anything pond related here.

THIS is where you would post an emergency topic about sick fish and get the most amount of views, and therefore the most amount of replies.
Logically you would not go to a forum that hardly gets any posts, or topics.

Of course I have already stated this in another post, but it was ignored.

3. After posting your topic, don't have a mental meltdown and get nasty because you don't get as many responses as you wanted in a certain amount of time. It's the frigging middle of winter, not only is forum traffic down, people will be stunned to read of someone messing with their pond in the middle of winter (just because there was a warm day or 2), causing their fish to die. So instead of posting, many readers will bite their tongue. If you do get nasty, don't expect ANY helpful replies.

4. Don't diss people who HAVE responded to your topic.

5. Editing nasty comments does NOT make them go away from a readers memory. We remember. We may eventually forgive...but we will remember the nature of the beast.

I am sorry and sad whenever ANYone loses a fish, even due to stupidity. But I will NOT tolerate being ranted and raved at because I am not telling a poster what he wants to hear.
Maybe I am a little too direct and honest for some people...and I take responsibilty for my own actions. I don't take BS from anyone.
And I won't apologize when no apology is warranted.
So Jim, I am sorry about your fish. I hope everyone has learned from your experience.

miguynmkoi · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2009, 01:23:00 PM »

Sorry to read your fish are sick. Blue was a beautiful fish too. I'm also sorry I didn't pipe in when I first saw your post but I really have no educated knowledge on the situation. Didn't want to give wrong advice.

I know you have already changed the water but that is one thing I wouldn't do especially during the cold weather, even here in SoCal. Just doesn't make sense to if that makes any sense.

Hope you find a way to save your fish. Just don't give up.

reddad35 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2009, 03:07:52 PM »

Quote from: Joyce on February 09, 2009, 08:08:09 AM

Jim, I did give you advice, I agreed with what Julles told you.
Even said I couldn't add any more to it.
So quit playing the victim here. Don't blame me for your mistakes.
I'm not killing your fish...YOU are.
I don't owe you ANYthing and there's nothing I can say that hasn't already been said to save your fish.

But what I do owe anybody reading, is some tips on using common sense, like others have advised too.

1. Don't mess with your pond in the middle of the winter. You'll kill your fish by stirring up all the levels of water stratification (layered temps), and bad bacteria.

2. Use your available resources with logic. One is, if you are going to use this forum, post into the correct forums. Start by going to the main forum page.
http://www.americanponders.com/forum/index.php
Look at the forum post count. Then determine which forums are getting the most visitors.
Read the descriptions of the forums under the forum headings. Such as Pond Chat: Feel free to talk about anything pond related here.
THIS is where you would post an emergency topic about sick fish and get the most amount of views, and therefore the most amount of replies.
Logically you would not go to a forum that hardly gets any posts, or topics.
Of course I have already stated this in another post, but it was ignored.

3. After posting your topic, don't have a mental meltdown and get nasty because you don't get as many responses as you wanted in a certain amount of time. It's the frigging middle of winter, not only is forum traffic down, people will be stunned to read of someone messing with their pond in the middle of winter (just because there was a warm day or 2), causing their fish to die. So instead of posting, many readers will bite their tongue. If you do get nasty, don't expect ANY helpful replies.

4. Don't diss people who HAVE responded to your topic.

5. Editing nasty comments does NOT make them go away from a readers memory. We remember. We may eventually forgive...but we will remember the nature of the beast.

I am sorry and sad whenever ANYone loses a fish, even due to stupidity. But I will NOT tolerate being ranted and raved at because I am not telling a poster what he wants to hear.
Maybe I am a little too direct and honest for some people...and I take responsibilty for my own actions. I don't take BS from anyone.
And I won't apologize when no apology is warranted.
So Jim, I am sorry about your fish. I hope everyone has learned from your experience.

Thank you everyone for your responses. My fish see to be doing fine. I stopped in a local pond store and I am actually bringing pictures in tomorrow for a better understanding of what is happening. None of my fish are pine coned so they too are leaning to it not being Dropsy. Thanks again to everyone.

These are responses to Joyces post only.

1) Thank you. appreciate this and did not know this before. I will not mess with my pond in winter again.

2) I tried to post in the appropriate section. I then went to one that had the most post/responses as you suggested. I Ignored nothing. See, I posted this and then you said to post it somewhere else. I really can't ignore something that has not been posted yet. I have been receiving mutliple personal messages as to this topic. I greatly appreciate these more than you know.

3) I apologized multiple times. My fish were dying before I started any work.

4) I have thanked everyone who has responded except you. You are mad at me and you respond in a worse manner than my original post that ticked you off. You also keep at it. Remember you said you had information that would help but you didn't want to share because I had a bad attitude. Lousy attitude there. hence me saying you were cold.

5) Again, I have apologized many times. I also sent you a personal message with an apology. When will you be able to get over yourself and stop? You said you had no desire to help. Then please stop helping. My fish were dying before I posted. I don't see a reason for you to call me stupid.

Joyce · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:40:45 PM »

I did not call you stupid. EVER.
And I was never cold.
That's is your interpretation of me not putting up with your BS.
People will be like that when when they are treated rudely.
And if people seem 'cold' to you, you need to think hard on that.
You reap what you sow.

You never posted this at Pond Chat where there is the most amount of topic and views.
You posted this in Koi Korner, where not many people post.
Where is this post in Pond Chat?
The only post I see there by you is: Do northern ponds make the year go by faster?

You can't figure out whay I became angry with you? More denial?

You were AWFULLY rude and then you edited it.
Doesn't make it go away.

And your behavior since does not impress me either.
A lame apology and then more nastiness, accusations and demands doesn't impress anyone.

Yup, I had info, then Kittyzee posted and I agreed with her, couldn't say more...GET IT?

I have nothing to get over. I'm not the one playing the victim, getting nasty, editing my posts to cover it up.
The nature of the beast will never change...and you're proving it.

EagleEye · « **Reply #21 on:** February 09, 2009, 07:07:59 PM »

Hey Jimbo,

I thought from your first post that I was some kind of jerk for not replying, even though I didn't have an answer, but when I go and reread your first post, I don't even recognize it.

Amazing what that little EDIT button can do huh?

BTW, glad your getting a handle on your fish problem

Steve

reddad35 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 10, 2009, 10:41:17 AM »

Thank you Joyce. I get it. I appreciate you setting me straight.

I do appreciate the personal messages I am receiving regarding my fish problem and not the posting problem.