Author Topic: Treated lumber deck around your pond? (Read 2755 times)

Bullfrog · « **on:** May 21, 2009, 05:28:35 AM »

I asked a question and one kind poster replied to me. An article that I read said not to have a treated lumber deck or walkway around or near your pond because the rain might cause some runoff that would harm or kill your fish. How many people have treated lumber decks or walkways around your pond and is it a problem? How do you deal with sealing the decking as the years go by? This article said to use cedar, cypress or other rot resistant wood.

kitfoxdrvr · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:02:52 AM »

Surprised noone has answered! Probably because there is a LITTLE controversy here!

While the pressure treating industry changed the chems it uses to preserve wood (from arsenic based to copper based) back in hte first half of this decade, the compounds are still poisonous to fish if introduced in sufficient quantities to their environment, just not as deadly. But dead is dead, and care should be exercised!

That said, I do have a treated wood deck within about 10 feet of my pond, but the ground is sloped away, and I would not worry about the amounts that splashing can send into the pond. Some will say you can build an overhanging deck with the stuff, especially if you seal it prior to construction (the best way to seal anyway). Others will say keep it far away from your pond. I am sort of in between in my thoughts, though I will not build an overhanging deck with any treated lumber, even if it is sealed. I would consider building a deck FRAME with presealed 2 by treated lumber, then decking it with one of the woods you mentioned, or even better, one of the recycled composite products (expensive, but imho, worth the difference). I would be comfortable using that to overhang a pond, but not treated decking, sealed or not.

Steve

Esther · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2009, 07:54:41 AM »

Sure now you tell me. Our boardwalk is along or over maybe a little less that half of the sides of the pond and was built out of pressure treated lumber left over from constructing 3 decks, about 5 years ago but not sealed. Guess there were no ill effects unless you count all of my Koi dying this winter under the ice.

This doesn't show exactly all of it but it continues on to the right around towards the arched bridge. The bridge is over a cement block window well in front of an egress window. The bridge easily lifts up and stands on end if the grandkids are sleeping over in the basement.

miguynmkoi · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2009, 08:13:08 AM »

I've only heard that using treated wood for vege garden is a no-no because, for lack of proper words, leaching of the chemicals used to preserve the wood will get into the surrounding dirt. I tend to believe this.

I wonder if you use the manufactured wood like Trek if it is safer.

kitfoxdrvr · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2009, 09:07:59 AM »

Quote from: Esther on May 21, 2009, 07:54:41 AM

Sure now you tell me. Our boardwalk is along or over maybe a little less that half of the sides of the pond and was built out of pressure treated lumber left over from constructing 3 decks, about 5 years ago but not sealed. Guess there were no ill effects unless you count all of my Koi dying this winter under the ice.

This doesn't show exactly all of it but it continues on to the right around towards the arched bridge. The bridge is over a cement block window well in front of an egress window. The bridge easily lifts up and stands on end if the grandkids are sleeping over in the basement.

There you go, a real world example! I doubt there is a connection between the deck and winter kill...

That is a beautiful setting, I am more relaxed just seeing your picture of your pond/garden, Esther!

Steve

reddad35 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2009, 09:45:15 AM »

Bullfrog, I posted on the other topic that I had a pond down in south Florida with a deck out over 2 sides for 3 years. No ill effects. I did this before ever reading a web help topic or knowing that there were clubs or forums to go to to ask questions. In the summer it rains around 1 or 2 oclock everyday. We lived east of lake Okeechobee and got a storm 10 minutes to an hour everyday from the buildup over the lake. When it hit the ocean air it fell on us. I did not seal that deck as I plan to do this one.

I used my prior experience to decide to do it again. I would never instruct someone its ok because of the talk of it being bad. I simply would say, before I kenw it was not a good idea I did it. It was fine and I would do it again. I would also look into other areas if my fish died tomorrow before worrying about my deck.

No expert just someone who has been there on this subject.

CliffandJoann · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2009, 03:26:50 PM »

To be safe, build it from cedar or redwood.
We've had our dock since 1997, (Redwood)
almost every Spring we wipe on a coat of Behrs Semi-translucent redwood stain.
works fine.

Our first dock was Redwood, then we re-built it in 2004 (I think it was 2004) because we made it
so that the middle section lifts off -- to house the skimmer underneath it. The second decking is cedar.
I wouldn't use pressure treated lumber next to the fish.

reddad35 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2009, 04:18:28 PM »

I just returned from a place in Owensboro Ky called ponds etc. He does not have a website but I will try to get pictures. ( he said he doesn't own a computer)

He started out with a 2000 gallon pond that has increased to 25,000 gallons. he has many fish 3 feet long. He started 12 years ago and has added pond and decking along the way. I asked him about this topic while I was there buying some water plants. He laughed and asked me if I saw his fish. His deck runs all over the place with gazebos and pergolas all made of pressure treated wood. All of them hang over the water everywhere. Some of the areas actually have the wood touching the water.

12 years 3 foot long fish. You can be safe and use redwood or cedar but it has not been a problem here. Nor at my place.

finnpond · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:00:29 PM »

I work with treated wood power poles and there is alot of mis-information out there... State of Florida did a study on playground equipment made from treated wood and the effects on human physical contact with it... Not very conclusive that it was really any danger... However the treating industry did change over to the copper based treatment... And now have gone to even other treatments, boron, sodium flouride, .....

Every pier or dock in lakes, oceans, etc. from the 1930's on, have been made world-wide from creosote or the arsenical based chemicals.. I don't know what the solution would be if they had to replace all that wood... Cut down more forests to replace it with a treatment that could be even worse... Granted our little ponds don't have alot of gallonage but with the amount of circulation they get from our pumps and water changes, I'm not really worried myself of contamination...

Once again, if it doesn't feel right to you, don't do it... But I haven't been aware of any plant or fish kill from having it in water...

Dave

frloplady · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:07:12 PM »

other safeguard is to put a slope on the deck away from the pond so run off goes the other way

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2009, 08:28:12 PM »

All the troughs that I build have a treated lumber top rail. I've never had a problem with it. The last one was made with the more ecologically safe PT lumber.

Holldoll · « **Reply #11 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:07:26 PM »

Good timing! I was just coming on here to ask about this. We FINALLY got our new pond full of water! It only took 7 months of a big hole in the ground and we will be building a deck up the one side of it. Esther, your pond is beautiful, it's almost the same setting as ours will be with the wall next to it.

casey · « **Reply #12 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:25:21 PM »

Our deck covers half our pond and is 16' x 19'. We used cedar and trex. Just didn't want to take a chance and have to redo everything if there was a problem. Our set up works fine.

Bullfrog · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2009, 04:25:07 AM »

Esther that pond looks so relaxing. Great job of decorating it too.

I guess there is nothing wrong with being careful, but some businesses capitalize on this to the extreme with their micron air filters for A/C's. They show an innocent baby and then zoom in on dust mites, animal dander, mold and pollen spores that are microscopic. Forget the fact that humans have lived for many thousands of years without A/C or filters with dust mites, animal dander, mold and pollen spores.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being careful but I also think that it can be carried too far as is evidenced by some of the posts here. It seems that the real life experiences of people bear proof that treated lumber decks overhanging a pond don't actually have any detrimental affects on the fish. Perhpas it is an offshoot of the litigious society that we have become. A ladder has to have about 20 stickers telling idiots not to raise it into power lines, stand it on an uneven surface, stand on the paint platform or on the top step. all of these are the results of lawsuits. Even a five gallon bucket has to have an image of a baby drowning in it and is written in two languages.

I have worked a lot with treated lumber lately after Ike visited my house and dropped trees through my roof and on my deck. I closed the deck in with treated 2X6X16' rafters and stud walls. When it is fresh and stacked, it is actually wet with the chemicals impregnated into the fibers. Your hands get green from the copper and when you drive a nail into a fresj treated piece you actually see the wet spot where you compress the fibers of the wood.

I think the smart play would be to spread the fresh treated pieces out on some landscape timbers or 2X4's on their side and let them dry and season in the sun for a while, cure them if you will. Then just be carefull when you do brush on any sealant as the years go by and have a sponge and a few rags handy. It's hard to argue with success in the real world.

CliffandJoann · « **Reply #14 on:** May 22, 2009, 05:40:13 AM »

"There is absolutely nothing wrong with being careful but I also think that it can be carried too far as is evidenced by some of the posts here. It seems that the real life experiences of people bear proof that treated lumber decks overhanging a pond don't actually have any detrimental affects on the fish"

Really, that's quite an assumption. Perhaps you should ask, how many fish losses have they had through the years?
I"ll go first, in 12 years, we've had -- One fish loss.
Our Koi are 11 and 12 years old...Our two original 12 year old goldfish
that we started out pond with in 1997, are still enjoying life to the fullest!

Just because people with pressure treated wood,(directly over their pond) didn't suffer overnight massive fish losses, isn't quite the base line to assume that pressure treated wood over a pond is safe.
People assume loosing a few fish over the winter is normal...Perhaps it's from light doses of chemicals throughout the season weakening their immune system before going into their long winters nap.
Same with chemicals in the pond, many people will swear they are not detrimental to the fish either...

Esther · « **Reply #15 on:** May 22, 2009, 06:17:32 AM »

Again, I have had no fish loss since the boardwalk was installed that couldn't be accounted for-----herons and the two that got into the bog chasing food pellets and I didn't find them in time to save them. I don't believe there is any way my boardwalk had anything to do with the fish death this winter. There has been so much water loss from the leak in the waterfall over the years that I had to add up to 2" per day of fresh water to make up for it last summer. But then maybe it was what killed all 10 this winter. The fact is that noone knows. If I were bulding a new boardwalk or deck, the deciding factor for me would be the cost and the plastic stuff might be nice seeing it won't need to be sealed and won't fade.

Bullfrog · « **Reply #16 on:** May 22, 2009, 06:32:21 AM »

I'm certainly no icthyologyist or however that is spelled. All I was saying is that it seems that many here do have treated lumber over their ponds and have seen no detrimental effects. How long fish live and how and why they die is a mystery to all of us unless we send them in to a pathologist for a forensict test as to the cause of death. Kids die for a lot of reasons as do adults, I'm sure that it is the same in the fish community.

I just asked a question and got several answers. People with treated lumber decks aren't seeing mass fish kills after a rain. The very water along our Gulf coast is highly polluted with all of our chemical plants and the runoff. From what has been said here and what I've seen along our coast, fish are very resilient as we are. I'm sure that if I live long enough I'll suffer from mesotheleomia because I work at a refinery and there is asbestos everywhere but I'm 53 now. We live and learn but it does seem that several people here do have treated lumber decks around thier pond and so far, no unusual fish kills.

My entire house was painted with lead based paint as a child and I'm sure that I gnawed on the ribs of my crib, I'm still alive. I drank out of a water hose that now is not acceptable because studies have shown that minute amounts of chemicals are leeched out of the hose into the water as the sun heats the hose.

Asbestos tiles lined the cieling of all of my elementary classrooms and I'm still alive. I've outlived a lot of my classmates even though I smoke and drink regularly on a daily basis.

Me and my buddies chased the mosquito spray truck on our bicycles breathing the vapors of God knows what poison they were spraying at the time and I'm still here. If I died right now, I've had a great life.

I lined up to take shots that they later found out might rot your teeth or kill you and I'm still here.

No offense, but I think that the paranoia that pevades our society to be so pure is motivated by a lot of law suits, God only knows the chemicals that I have injested.

To me, the bottom line is that a lot of people do have treated lumber decks over their pond and they still have fish. Fish do die as we all do but if using a little common sence such as letting it cure works, why argue with sucess? Who really knows whats in our water or air? I do respect those who go to extreme measures to protect their fish and I was spanked here for suggesting to shoot a heron that is eating your fish.

From what I've read here, using treated lumber does no real harm, have you had your rocks tested for pathogens?

reddad35 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 22, 2009, 07:01:55 AM »

I have seen this topic many times in and on different forums. I have read from many many posters that it is detrimental to the fish to use pressure treated lumber near your pond. I have read many many other posters say they used it with no problems. I have not read one post ever that said they lost their fish to treated lumber. They said its bad and don't ever do it but no one has said don't do it I lost my fish.

This is similair to the rock no rock topic you mentioned above. No real answer just beliefs. I lost 2 fish this winter. I truly believe its because of the leaves and debris in the bottom that I did not get out and I had shut my waterfalls down for the winter. This year I will make sure to have a clean pond going into winter and leave one waterfall going. The man I mentioned earlier leaves his 4 falls going year round, has a rock bottom with rocks throughout, pressure treated decking gazebos, and pergolas. Fish are fine. I forgot to tell you I had my pond for 3 years in Florida before I sold my house and moved to Indiana. That was 5 1/2 years ago. (8 1/2 total now) I have visited my old pond a couple of times while visiting my son down there. My fish, now the new owners fish are still there growing and doing great.

CliffandJoann · « **Reply #18 on:** May 22, 2009, 07:04:46 AM »

Firstly. I have not tested my rocks for pathogens. However, we've never had the need to, as our pond is always well balanced and our fish healthy.
I was commenting on your original question, asking is it safe to use pressure treated lumber around your pond? I simply stated that before making a scientific conclusion, that pressure treated wood over or close to a pond is safe, also ask the question to those that say they have no problems with pressure treated wood -- how many fish losses have they experienced over the years?
Perhaps, just loosing a few fish each year, is no big deal to some, but it is to us.

"To me, the bottom line is that a lot of people do have treated lumber decks over their pond and they still have fish. Fish do die as we all do but if using a little common sense such as letting it cure works, why argue with success?"

I am not arguing with success, just pointing out that before coming to the conclusion that just because people with treated lumber over their ponds have had success, ask the question, how many fish losses do they average over time. Common sense is good, combined with logic reasoning is even better.

kitfoxdrvr · « **Reply #19 on:** May 22, 2009, 08:07:47 AM »

Quote from: Bullfrog on May 22, 2009, 04:25:07 AM

I think the smart play would be to spread the fresh treated pieces out on some landscape timbers or 2X4's on their side and let them dry and season in the sun for a while, cure them if you will.

I have done this before and had a bunch of pieces of wood shaped like pretzels! Make sure that you let them dry held down flat some way. As they dry, they shrink in al three dimensions and will warp SIGNIFICANTLY. I have not come up with a way to keep this from happening other than just building with the wet lumber, taking into account shrinkage. The really wet stuff, you can lay the decking down with no gaps and you will end up with gaps for drainage as it shrinks. I am not sure how you could hold it down to keep it from warping other than to nail/screw it down. The best, of course, would be for it to dry strapped in the bundles, but who wants to wait that long? I guess the best thing to do if you decide to build with pt lumber, rinse it off good before you put in place, but still build with it "wet". Contrary to what a lot of the manufacurers say, you CAN use a sealer on wet lumber; in fact, it will slow this shrinkage/warping and reduce its effects.

That said, I stick with my recommendation of using pt lumber for the frame and decking with one of the engineered woods like Trek.

Steve

Julles · « **Reply #20 on:** May 25, 2009, 04:52:46 PM »

BF - what about that new plastic decking, made from recycled materials? It looks good, stays cool, never rots or gets mossy/slippery, and it would eliminate the question of chemical run off.