Author Topic: considering a pond... (Read 3152 times)

jasert39 · « **on:** March 03, 2010, 08:25:31 PM »

I guess first off, I should say Hello! My name is Jay and I am from PA. My wife and I bought a new home in december and I am considering adding a pond to our backyard. I have seen some amazing looking ponds already on this site and cannot wait for all of the snow to melt and get started. I do have A LOT of questions before I go all in. Hope you all can help me.

I have kept aquarium fish for years (Had to give it up to sell our old home

, so I am familiar with filtration and water testing etc. Here is the "plan" that I am putting together right now...I would like a "water garden" style pond with some gold fish. I'm planning a sort of half circle/oval shaped tank that I will be able to sort of overlook from our deck. Basic dimension I am picture are something like 10-12 feet long x 4-5 feet wide....now the questions, haha.

What is a good depth for a pond like I am describing?
I like the idea of an external filtration unit, any opinions? what are good brands out there? In the aquarium hobby the advice was to "overbuy" filtration, does this apply to ponds as well?
Are there pond plants that do well in shaded area? My yard has quite a few trees that block a lot of our sunshine in the summer.
Along the same lines...i assume i will need a skimmer of some sort...opinions?
Are all goldfish able to adapt to pond life? As an "aquarium" guy that kept stable temps all the time, keep fish below a frozen layer of water boggles my mind, haha.

Well I am sure I will come up with plenty more, but any info you folks have would be amazing....picture, links anything would be help at this point.

Johns · « **Reply #1 on:** March 03, 2010, 09:20:24 PM »

Welcome, Jasert,

First of all, you are more ahead of the game than you may think. Outdoor water gardens are, in fact, nothing more than outdoor aquariums, and you can apply just about all you already know, just on a larger scale.

In your area, the deeper the better, if you intend on leaving your fish in the pond over the winter. However, while fish are better protected from predators in ponds with steep sides, should someone or your dog fall in, they will need a way out, so i always suggest what I call mother-in-law steps.

Consider the electrical requirements of your new pond, and unless you have considerable electrical experience, hire an electrician to install GFI protected electric service for your pump, lights, etc. Remember, extenson cords are taboo outdoors for anything other than temporary use.

While you're at it, consider also providing a water line to the pond area as well, in order to ease the filling and periodic "topping off" of your pond.

Check some books on water gardening out of your local library and read them, then tell us what you envision and someone here will give you guidance as to how your ideas can be melded into the water garden you desire.

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2010, 11:00:17 AM »

Jay.

As far as depth, I would say to go 12" below the frost line to be on the safe side. Here in Alabama, that means going 24" deep. No problem for water lilies. As far as shade loving plants, do a search on this forum. You will find a lot of info. As far as my experience, while in Florida, I learned that hardy water lilies could handle shorter periods of sun because the climate was warmer. That is not the case in this part of Alabama or further north where you are. I do know that Black Magic taros like the shade. You might even find them as Black Magic elephant ears.

jasert39 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2010, 11:11:37 AM »

Thanks for the replies! I feel like I have spent more time reading about ponds today than actually working

I am going to swing in Borders tonight and track down some books to read. Can't wait for is left of the snow here to melt and hopefully get started!

Reedman · « **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:29:42 PM »

Welcome to the forum! What part of PA? I live just west of Harrisburg and I made my pond 2-3' deep.

jasert39 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2010, 02:32:51 PM »

i live South of Philadelphia, I could just about throw a rock into Delaware from my backyard, haha,

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2010, 06:22:55 PM »

Quote from: jasert39 on March 04, 2010, 02:32:51 PM

i live South of Philadelphia, I could just about throw a rock into Delaware from my backyard, haha,

Don't do that, you might hit a Minute Man.

tinkster · « **Reply #7 on:** March 04, 2010, 08:33:44 PM »

Hello and welcome.

If you do a search on google, look for biological filter called skippy.. its a DIY filter that most swear by. I have very little mechanical filtration, just a home made rubbermaid tub with my two waterfalls pumps in it and its filled with lava rock and some quilt batting. My biological filter at the top of my waterfall is what keeps me clean and NOT green. I have 3 big koi, various water plants, a ton of misplaced goldfishes but great water with almost no effort.

Tink

jasert39 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2010, 04:21:49 AM »

Thanks everyone, I did come across some DIY filters yesterday in my searches and think they might just be the way to go....supposed to get a little warmer here this weekend, maybe the snow will be gone soon! haha.

So far what I have some up with as a basic plan is...going at least 30-36" deep at the ponds deepest point, with a few tiers or "mother-in-law" steps as the walls go up. The space I have limits me to a pond that is 12' at its longest point and about 5-6 feet a its widest point. It seems that a 45mil liner and a layer or underlayment are the way to get started. And at this point I am leaning towards a DIY filter.

there seem to be a lot of different brands of pumps out there, and that I should stay away from? I have used some of the pondmaster pumps (mag9s and mag12) in my aquarium days and they away worked for me.

Probably a stupid question, but in the winter time I am assuming that since we freeze here, the pumps and filters will be need to able to be removed from the system while it is frozen?

Kittyzee · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2010, 04:58:19 AM »

This is probably a personal preference, but I live in Ohio and my pond freezes a couple of inches thick on top for a month or more--but I disconnect my pump hoses from the bio-waterfall and drain the tank in late fall. I keep the pump with the hose diverted to an area where there is some movement on the top of the water all winter long. I don't want to disturb the thermal layering of the water when it's reallly cold and hurt my fish, just enough to keep an area from freezing solid to have gas exchange in the deep freeze. I use a stock tank de-icer to keep a hole in the ice close to where the water moves and the movement helps keep it from freezing as solid as the rest of the pond. My pond has finally unfrozen for the first time in a couple of months, and my fish look healthy and happy again!

Julles · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2010, 01:47:08 PM »

Welcome, Jay.

36" minimum.

Snowflake (yellow and also white) has pads that mimic lilies, and they bloom in the shade.

Goldfish will do well in your pond. I have fantails in my pond, but most are in a "corral" made of plastic screen mesh over PVC pipe, so they can't go deeper than 20" or so ... these types of fish can develope swim bladder problems if they go too deep.

But plan for koi - because you WILL want some, and not too far down the road. They are feisty and flashy, full of personality, and so much fun to watch.

Pondmaster pumps are great.

Look into bog filters, too. On the DIY forum, there is a how-to build one.

I have a pressurized canister outside the pond bio filter, and it works great, plus runs the waterfall. Just beware of the ones that are supposed to self-clean by back-flushing. I had two different brands, and they do NOT work. The Pondmaster (I think that's the right brand) does have a style that works, because it uses plastic balls inside instead of foam sponges.

jasert39 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2010, 03:20:00 PM »

Again, thanks for all of the great information. I just walked in the door with a pond book that I grabbed on a trip to home depot...probably have the whole thing read this evening, haha.

I appreciate all of the information and hopefully am able to share some of my own someday soon. Jay

crazyfishlady · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2010, 07:41:32 PM »

Hi,
I have one tip that the guy who did my pond recommended. Use two smaller pumps instead of one big pump. If a pump fails you still have some circulation until you can repair it or get a replacement for the one that goes out.

During a heat wave a couple of years ago that was very sound advice. I don't think the fish would have made it if there wasn't some oxygenation from the uninterrupted circulation.

I started my pond with goldfish, the comets picked on the fantails and eventually the fantails that survived fell victim to a furry predator. They just can't swim fast enough to get away. I switched to koi and have been very happy. To me the koi are more social. If you have koi and goldfish they do mate and you get really dull brown little fish.

Guess that's more than one tip. Happy ponding.

Jerry · « **Reply #13 on:** March 05, 2010, 10:33:00 PM »

Super thread with great ideas. Go to our links, see Koi Village. Gene has complete instructions for building a Skippy. I did it with his advice and some parts.
No UV, Seldom clean the filter media and almost always have clear water.

jasert39 · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2010, 04:25:58 AM »

One more question I have (for this morning anyway)....how concern should I be about tree roots? As I said before my lot is shaded, by a quite a few trees and the spot I am thinking about is within about 10 feet of a pretty large tree. I'm not as concerned about digging the hole for the pond as I am the roots growing into it...

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #15 on:** March 06, 2010, 04:54:38 AM »

Sorry Jerry, my mind was on ponds in history class.

Johns · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2010, 06:33:14 AM »

Jay,

Regarding the tree: The absolute worst tree to have close to a watergarden is a weeping willow or any willow for that matter because they have water searching roots and constantly shed leaves and limbs. Generally, keep your pond, especiallly the waterfall (waterfall splash may moisten the soil enough to attract roots)as far away from any tree as possible mainly because of the mess from leaves falling in the pond. Also, remember that lilies need sun.

Just for fun, you might want to visit my website, main page : http://www.gardenendeavors.com/
Page on watergardens: http://www.gardenendeavors.com/rack/web2.html

and my "Useful links" page, where you will find a motherlode of info, especially at Bonnies watergarden link, Cuch Rush'es Pond Rushes, and Bickals site. greg's Cd is worth every penny he charges and has a bunch of good DIY on it. My Links page: http://www.gardenendeavors.com/rack/web14.html

jasert39 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2010, 05:12:34 PM »

well ive decided to go for it! Marked the area I am planning on digging for the pond. Putting together a list of items I need to purchase, hopefully have it ready to order by the end of the week.

I have a small tree I need to remove (was planning on taking it down anyway) and then I am off to the races, I would like to thank everyone for all of there advice, I'm certain more questions will follow in the coming weeks.

Jay

Julles · « **Reply #18 on:** March 08, 2010, 03:06:50 PM »

Our local pond store claims that tree roots are not really a problem, because tree roots go in search of water. Well, as they travel along seeking water, once they hit the liner, they are unable to sense that there is water on the other side, so they divert their path and avoid your pond.

At least, that's what the pond store says.

My pond is partially under a Live Oak, and I did cut some fairly thick roots when we did the excavation. So I guess you can say I'm testing their theory.

Depending on where you place the pond, you may not need a skimmer. If leaves or debris are a problem, then install one. I dont' have one, and can easily keep up with fallen debris with a net.

jasert39 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 09, 2010, 06:10:11 AM »

Thanks Julles, that gives me a little peace of mind regarding the roots...hopefully tree goes down this afternoon and the weather cooperates this weekend and I get get some digging/planning done!

Esther · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2010, 09:10:32 AM »

The depth you choose may be inflenced by how tall you are. I said that the way to choose was to have someone standing by with a tape measure and then bend over, putting your hands flat on the floor,and turn your head to the side as far as it will go. Then have the other guy measure the distance between the floor and your nose. I learned about that back when we were scooping string algae off the bottom with our hands. Also when you want to pick something up off the bottom and you can't reach, it's sorta a pain. But lots of folks can't reach their pond bottom so it's up to you.

I live in Michigan and my pond depth ranges from 24" to 30". I shut my pump and waterfall off when I see the sides start to freeze as I don't want the ice forming in the waterfall, to divert the water from the pond. I then put in my DIY deicer to keep the ice open. Many of us use different techniques for different stuff so you'll get different advice. What works for you may not work for me. Like some swear by putting rocks on the bottom of the pond and some swear at the idea. LOL.

My bio filter is a Skippy. But my pond is bigger than yours will be so you probably won't need so large a skippy. Everything in my pond is DIY except for the pump of course and it's a Tsurumi 3000 I think. It's mostly stainless steel construction. You will want to turn your water over at least once an hour if not every half hour. With a small pond, you will be restricted with how many fish and how large. So like was said before, the split tail types get grabbed by the herons more quickly but the Koi are prettier and more friendly but they can get huge and your pond may not be large enough.

Oh and trees-----I swear that on windy days, I have leaves blowing in from Indiana. It's like my pond is a leaf magnet.

tweetybaby2005 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 10, 2010, 08:09:26 AM »

Welcome Jay. I see that you have received some great advise already.

If you have big trees or lots of trees around your pond, make sure you have good netting over the pond in the Fall before the leaves start falling. It will help quite a bit so you don't have tons of rotting leaves at the botton of the pond during winter. Your pond water will turn brown with leaves in it due to the tenin (sp??) but harmless to the fish. Rotting leaves, however, will cause problem so you would want to net them out. I would also recommend a skimmer if you have leaves problem so it will help skim some of the leaves off of your pond surface. Just make sure it sits across from your waterfall if you decide to have one.

Skippy filter is great. I have a modified one and I put plants on top of it so they help cover or mask the tub. Water flows out of it and turns into waterfall.

You are off to a great start already by researching ahead of time.

Last but not least, make the pond as big as you can afford to because once you are addicted to ponding, you will want it bigger and better.

Again, welcome and enjoy. We have a bunch of great people on the board.

Happy ponding,
Kuan

jasert39 · « **Reply #22 on:** March 10, 2010, 08:45:41 AM »

Thanks Kuan, any chance you have a picture of your filter handy? I would love to see how you managed to get the plants to grow out of the top.

Once i get digging, I'll see how far I get get, definitely going to be as big as I can handle...already planning for the netting system over the pond for the fall, thinking of making some sort of screen out of pvc and leaf netting to help with the leaves.

Jay

tweetybaby2005 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 10, 2010, 06:12:21 PM »

Quote from: jasert39 on March 10, 2010, 08:45:41 AM

Thanks Kuan, any chance you have a picture of your filter handy? I would love to see how you managed to get the plants to grow out of the top.

Once i get digging, I'll see how far I get get, definitely going to be as big as I can handle...already planning for the netting system over the pond for the fall, thinking of making some sort of screen out of pvc and leaf netting to help with the leaves.

Jay

Here you go. The waterfall/skippy filter is on the left. I have elephant ears and impatients in the skippy.

Kuan

emm · « **Reply #24 on:** March 11, 2010, 08:37:02 AM »

Kuan, I don't remember seeing your pond before. It's beautiful. Love your bridge.

emm

tweetybaby2005 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 11, 2010, 09:11:38 AM »

Quote from: emm on March 11, 2010, 08:37:02 AM

Kuan, I don't remember seeing your pond before. It's beautiful. Love your bridge.

emm

Thanks emm. This will be my 2nd winter with the pond. I went overboard with the water hyacinth last year so this year, I'll do it sparingly.

I wish I have room to expand it but we just don't. Hopefully when we build our new home on the 5 acre land we can have a bigger one to enjoy. As for the bridge, got it from Sam's Club and it is one solid piece of metal.

The kids love it too.

Kuan

Esther · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2010, 06:53:41 AM »

One summer I put plants in the Skippy but the roots permeated all the filter media and caused a big mess. The next year I put the plants in buckets on top of the media. I guess it just depends on what you want to deal with. We have to shut down the Skippy around November so the plants can't stay in there anyway.

Pa Nancy · « **Reply #27 on:** March 15, 2010, 11:06:06 AM »

Welcome Jay, Here in Pa. you want to go at LEAST 3 ft. Deeper is better. Goldfish will do nice in a pond size you describe. Koi need a LOT of water and room per fish. Fantails don't do well, they can't take the cold as well as Comets, and Shubunkins. Shubunkins are pretty and VERY hardy fish esp. if you plan to keep them outside in the winter.

IMHO the Pondmaster pump is your BEST bet. Stay away from Little Giants, they are notoriously unreliable.
I"m on the other side of the state, near Pittsburgh.

Have fun with your new hobby!