cement use as filler

[lerchcon]

over the past three years I have had many problems of trying to clean my pond out, because the pond man that built it, barried the pumps under the rocks.  Less to see I understand, impossible to get to to clean is what they are = (.  anyhow I am looking to fix this, I have pictures here on this site of my pond.  I am hoping to get some help with this from here.  I am looking to fill in between all rocks and boulders with cement/mortar not sure which would be better add the coloring when mixing to match the vegas theme.  I then plan to cement the bottom as well with river rock on the bottom so to help the concrete and make it easier to clean with a brush.  anyhow if i do this how long will I have to wait to put my fish back in, because as of now I dont have anywhere to put them except in a plastic container.  Also the pond guy recommended that I use a 3/4 to 1hp hayward powerflo matrix pump instead of using submersible ones.  The reason he says to use this is because they hold up to the heat here in vegas, and they cost around 175.00.  So in doing research the amps are about equal to a savio master solids sub pump, has anyone else used these?  If so what was you outcome?

[lerchcon]

no takers? please help

[Jerry]

Be patient.  You will get answers.

[tranquility]

 Sorry I looked for pics but, couldn't find them--
no expert here but, do know that concrete or cement will really play havoc on the water chemistry....you have to cure it or paint over it with a pond grade sealer....that being said what is your pond made from? a liner? I can't imagine a liner holding up to all that concrete...why do you want to fill in the bottom? deeper ponds mean more water volume and less problems IMO...most of us ponders like more water instead of less--I would chunk any rocks or peagravel in the bottom especially if your having trouble cleaning---its alot easier to clean out a lined pond than to deal with power washing all those rocks and rocks can hide muck which can harbor lots of problems....Now there are alot of people here that have rocks which is fine as long as you are able to give that pond a good cleaning every year and rocks take up water volume....I would look into an external pump and a retro fit bottom drain and  remove all rocks and the bottom drain can help keep the bottom clean...I don't live in Arizona but, I love my sequence pump and alot of people I know that has one really like theirs...I'm getting more gallons per hour for less than the power it would have cost to run a submersible pump...I got mine from Billy he usually posts deals on the dealers deals section here--and he is full of really great information 
Lawanna

[Julles]

Ditto re the problems with concrete and water chemistry.  I put a cinder block in my turtle pond for a hiding place, and the next morning, three stink pots were in very bad shape, and all eventually died.  Not "sure" it was the concrete, but that was the only element that had changed.

Re filling in around the rocks, you could use Great Stuff Expanding Foam - Esther has used it a lot around her pond.  Seals leaks and gaps.  It even comes in black.  The regular version is light yellow, but quickly weathers to a not-so-unnatural brown. 

[PondmaninAL]

Julles, it might not have been the cinder block itself but something that might have gotten on it before you stuck it in there. I had one in my turtle pond in Florida with no problems. The block had been out in the weather for some time before that though.

[lerchcon]

you can see my pond here...................    http://www.americanponders.com/forum/index.php?topic=11895.0

I appreciate the quick responses, my dilema is this, I was initially going to leave bare liner and having it go straight down, the builder also my friend said that the vegas heat would beam through the water and eventually cause dry rot or worse causing leaks.  But that is a great Idea that I wanted to go with.  so I went with a pond that is about 9 feet wide by 8 feet by 4.5 feet.  With the 45 mil epdm liner and the pea gravel on top of a underground filter made of PVC ( really doesnt work) with the granite boulders I have maybe 5 foot by 5 at the bottom of the pond because of the way you have to stack rocks to get the to stay naturally in place, but also kind of dangerious if you stand on the wrong one.  Any how I am getting sidetracked sorry = ).  I was looking to use the concrete not only to seal the entire pond but also to create a swimming pool effect, would mortar hold up as a filler between the rocks?  any suggestions are good ones, I just have to find the best one that suits me.  as far as the liner not handling the weight I have roughly 5 or 6 tons of rocks carfully placed in the pond right now as well as around it all granite boulders, not sealed right now of course, but as far as the foam it would cost way way to much to seal all the holes between rocks.  keep the ideas comming please.

[tranquility]

If it were me I'd chunk all the rocks inside the pond and put up a shade sail to keep the sun from hitting the pond and it would also keep the water cooler and the fishies happier--not to mention it should really put a dent in any over growth of algae...
Lawanna

[Esther]

So the problem is the rocks and pea gravel on the bottom, I take it. I can't imagine keeping getting the gunk and leaves out of something like that. So cementing your pond means totally emptying it===what a job!!!! Don't worry about the color of your cement. It won't be long and it will be ucky just like your rocks are now. I wouldn't EVER put the pump on the bottom anyway. You will have a big mess if for some reason the water gets diverted from the flow returning to the pond. And it has happened. My pump sits in a laundry tub on a step about 2' under the surface. If for some reason it pumps out, it can't pump all the water out and leave the fish high and dry. I also have a float that will shut off the power to the pump if the water level goes down to guard the pump from burning up.

[tranquility]

Esther is soo right about the pump on bottom...Many a fish have died just because of that....
Lawanna

[Kittyzee]

I agree about the position of the pump.  Mine is submerged, but not sitting on the bottom:  it just sucks in everything that filters to the bottom and you would always be cleaning the filter.

I guess I'm not clear still on just why you feel you need to pile boulders on top of a liner to keep it in place.  Unless you just like the look of the rocks, which is perfectly fine.  But the weight of the water itself will keep that liner from moving, along with whatever you have around the top edge of your pond.  I agree with Tranquility:  a shade cloth in your climate would probably be a necessity to keep the water, fish, and plants from getting too warm. 

[lerchcon]

Ok where to begin, so many good comments i no kidding have the website open twice to make sure I respond to all of you helping me = ).
tranquility.......
I cant add a shade sail, becuase of the 70-90 mile an hour winds here it would just blow away or tear in a matter of months. Even if i found one that would work, my HOA would not allow it, because it would have to be anchored to the block wall and that is illegal here in Vegas because of the whole sharing a wall with everyone around you. but I have tried to find a way to shade the pond had several contractors come out and got denied with permits because of the reasons stated above.  oh well,  great idea though, love where your mind is = )

Esther......
believe it or not i really dont get alof of debri, it is just that, i would like to be able to clean the bottom of the pump, that is all, as far as emptying the whole pond I am a young 31, and up for the challenge after watching this guys video i got my inspiration, maybe some of you have seen it on youtube      http://www.youtube.com/ThePondDigger#p/u/3/tsbkfUswHFs     

He says in the video he is using mortar, so that is the route i will take and hopefully it all works out. this guy has been on tv shows and such here in las vegas for his talent, not that that is a great thing but not a bad thing either.  I have faith in this aspect.  Although I am really happy to be getting rid of the pea gravel on the bottom for sure, along with that God aweful non working underwater filter, I think i will leave that bare liner, because i want it to be as deep as possible.  I am thinking I will get the external pump instead of submersible, i think it will be smarter for me.  but great solution. 

kittyzee.....
I am not piling up rocks to keep the liner in place, I am piling rocks because I live in a rock desert = ), and my backyard is full of gravel, fake grass, cypris trees, my pond and a bbq island, it really all flows together rather nice.  i will see if i can get a pic of the whole backyard soon to show you what i mean, and you never know when i mortar this in i think i want to get ride of alot of the bigger boulders, so i can have a bigger pond.  keep suggestions comming thank you to you all

[Jerry]

Shade sails can be independent.  They can be done on
galvanized posts.
So California has plenty of high winds.

[lerchcon]

you are so right, but in our stupid by laws for the HOA or what ever they are called in order to do a shade sail i would have to have 4 posts or a minimum of three and to do this so it shades the pond I would have to measure five feet from both walls in the corner of my yard and put on there, well that is directly in the center of my pond, so that is why that is out.  So i though a pergola but I am faced with the bi law thing.

[Jerry]

One more thought. A sigle pole with some custom welding for Shade Fabric.

[lerchcon]

that might actually work, good thinking I will see what i can dream up = ).