Koi growth

[Michiponder]

Since it has been so slow here I thought I would see if I could raise some interest in posting with a topic that is very interesting to me.

Many people in the past on several boards have had discusions about koi growth and if it is more related to environmental conditions like water quality, feed, temps, or genetics.  Having raised many batches of koi over the last couple of decades I decided to test this by collecting runts from a spawn and growing them on till they were old enough to spawn.  I have seen many koi stunted by evironmental conditions and lack of proper food in the past.  I also know that in any given spawn there will be fish that grow to past 8" in a year even up here in the cold North and some will be less than  2"(I am not talking about the tobies that are removed).  Usually the tiny runts are removed in the culling process.  It took me 5 years to get several of these small fish large enough to spawn.  It normally takes 3 to 4 years for females to start here.  The spawn was quite small in comparison to normal sized fish.  At the end of the summer when it was time to cull them over 80% were under 1" and most of the rest were only up to 2".  These fish were grown under the same conditions as other spawns that were larger and within days of the same age.  At the end  of the year when they were taken to the pet shop they were mostly in the 1 1/2 to 1 3/4" range (they were sold as "bonsi koi").  I still have a couple that are now 2 1/2 years old and less than 3".  After having done this little, but long experiment I believe genetics can play a larger role in koi growth than many people believe.  Mabybe it is because they have been so inbred for so many years to achieve thier bright colors and patterns.  Anyone else have experiences like this or opinions about this topic?

Mikel

[perplexed ponder]

  LOL Bonsai Koi!!

I have no info to add, just thought that was funny!

[miguynmkoi]

Bonsai Koi!  That's the reason I'm giving now about my koi.  After about 10 years they have reach 12" length, mostly from the past few years. 

[Michiponder]

Wow!  They are even smaller than most of the first batch I raised to try breeding little fish at 5 years old.  Have they ever spawned ?  What is thier water quality and feed like?  One thing I did not mention is that often when culling time comes along there are some fish that are so small they go right trough the seine.  Wonder what would have happened if I had used those tiny fish for my experiment.

Mikel

[miguynmkoi]

I started with way too many fish for my 500 gal pond.  I had lots of plants in containers for the new small fish to begin with.  I fed them sparingly to avoid too much poopy problems in the beginning when I didn't know that filtering a small space well with too many fish would be so important.  I fed them quality koi food at least twice a day, not including random but meager food tossed in by other family members.

Then I amped up more filtering a few years ago, still feeding them quality koi food, year round (winter food and warm weather food, this is SoCal after all) but more.  They started to grow faster.  Last Spring I did notice some activity I have never noticed the koi doing before.  Maybe they will have more fishy activities this Spring.  The 4 original koi are about 10 years old and most of them are 12+".  I can almost tell which ones are male or female by the activity.

I adopted 2 small butterfly koi about 2+ years ago in late summer when they were about 4" long not including the tail fin who were raised in a small aquarium.  They are at least 2" longer now with the feeding regiment and the larger space.

Funny thing about these last 2 koi is that when I first received them they were solid colors.  One was platinum and the other golden yellow/orange.  They turned dark within months, like black patches.  Then as they grew they have lost most of the black except around the "seams" or the ridges and edges of the fins.

[Julles]

I think all the environmental elements factor in, but that genetics play a significant role. 

The koi you buy from a pet shop are not bred to get large, nor to be colorful.  They're just bred to be sold.  Most of my fish are from this category, and they are like Annette's - 10 or even 15 years old and not much more than 15" in body length.  Of course, they're over crowded, but the water is clean and there's room to swim 10' laps. 

I was just at my ex BF's, and he has invested in show quality koi.  I haven't been over there in about 15 years, and was amazed to see how huge his fish are.  30", maybe 36", and big fat bodies like you see on the show fish.  His fish live in what looks to me like a pretty small and shallow pond.

On our Pond Tour here in Houston, some of the people will point out their koi, maybe a foot or more long, and say that the fish was bought just last year.

So, some grow large and fast, and others poke around at it.  I think it has to do with show quality koi being bred to grow to huge proportions as quickly as possible.

[Michiponder]

Have to agree that show koi are a different animal.  Not so sure even all show koi have the genes to grow very large.  In the culling process some fish that are older begin to show quality colors and patterns  are kept and sold with younger fish.  I think this adds to the genetic variability of size in koi offspring and may also be the reason most young champion winners (smaller show classes) rarely ever grow to be grand champs.  Often I have fish that are well over 10" at 1 year old even up here in MI.  There are often many fish from the same batch and raised with them that are less that 2".  Sadly many of these little fish have the best patterns and colors.  Environment can play a big role, but I believe size of pond has more to do with maintaining the stability of the water quality than how large a fish will grow in a given size of tank.  I have grown fish from 3" to 10 or 11" in just one winter by dripping well water into the system at 1/2 gal. per hour.  That was in a ten gallon tank!   They were not nicely shaped fish after this, but did grow large.

Mikel

[Vickie]

I have baby koi that hatched the first part of July 2011. I gave some away maybe 40. I kept about 60 or more and brought them inside. I have them in a 100 gallon pond and some in 10 gallon aquariums and a 15 gallon aquarium. I have noticed they are all different sizes. Some are 2 inches and some one inch and others smaller.

[big ron]

I have all butterfly koi in a 3000 gal pond.  In mid June ( last year ) I noticed there were babies swimming around.  I left them in the pond until Sept and then removed 6 of them to a 20 gal Aquarium for the winter inside.   I wanted to watch their growth.  Well now they are 4-4 1/2 " and growing quick.  I only feed them once a day.   It won't be long before they will outgrow the aquarium.   

[Julles]

MichiPonder - that's some hi-tech techniques and record keeping...Are you a koi breeder?  You must have a huge set up.

[Michiponder]

Just a hobby for me.  Have been raising koi for over 20 years though.  I Luckily live in the country and have 3 small earth bottom ponds and one large earth bottom pond about 70' x 90' with a channel long enough to give me a small island for bonfires and picnics.  I also have a lined 1000 gal pond in the greenhouse and  2000 gal, 1500 gal, 4000 gal lined ponds outside.  Also  1000 and 700 gal stock tanks.  I use a 70 gal tank with a 20 gal sump for hatching then transfer the fry to the small earth bottom ponds until culling,  I then transfer the few I keep to the tanks,greenhouse, or one of the lined ponds.  The big pond is mostly just used for looking at or tossing fish not nice enough to grow on in the lined ponds because it is too difficult to retrieve them without draining it.  Many years ago I used to sell several hundred small fish off, but now most of the fish I grow on and are not kept are given to the local koi club for auction or end up at local suppliers that support that club.  Many just end up with friends or new people starting into the hobby.  I cull very heavily and thousands of ugly ones make lots of fertlizer for the yard.  I don't raise show fish, just fish I think are pretty.  Age and health has slowed me to the point that I usually only seriously persue breeding the fish every other year now.  Looking forward to this year since I am now officially retired and can spend some time with the ponds and yard. 

Mikel

[Michiponder]

Was thinking about record keeping and how I track the happenings in my pond and yard.  Yes in years past I have been known to keep logs on the fish and thier progress mostly because I often forget too many things about general maintenance.  With so many ponds, fish, and other things going on in my life I found it was easier to to do things that way.  I have been known to do some dumb things and cause lots of problems for the ponds by not remembering when even general maintenance was done or by doing too much that was not needed.  Nowadays I usually just try to remember to just spend some time simply observing them and how they act.  Have found that like many things a regular schedule makes for a more stable environment and is much better for the fish.  Wish I had kept at least a list of the plants and labeled things in the yard too!  Does anyone else here keep any records like that?

[Julles]

Record keeping is a good idea, and a way to remember what works and doesn't, as well as keep maintenance on schedule.

I have a lot of budgies, and usually breed one or two pairs at least every summer.  So I set up records on each bird, so I could keep track of where they were obtained, age, color, who bred with whom, who is related to whom, and even personality traits.

What I found is that it's easy and fun to set up the record system.  But highly unlikely that I will actually have time or inclination to fill any additional information.