Author Topic: pond heater-deicer  (Read 2919 times)

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Offline 2vetts

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pond heater-deicer
« on: December 05, 2009, 07:08:05 AM »
we have a small heater from our pond at last house but it has set in cupboard for 7 years [since we moved here]. i put it in our skimmer bucket which contains pump during summer and when checking it just now i found ice . it appears i need to replace it but they are ridiculously expensive any suggestions for a source or brand . that's zone 5 and temp is currently mid 20's f not c. thanks . . .peace

Offline Kittyzee

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2009, 07:14:20 AM »
check with a TSC store (Tractor Supply) and look for stock tank de-icers or a Farm Bureau that has a store inside.  They sometimes are a bit cheaper.  Remember that you don't have to leave it on all the time--if you do the water will be too warm.  I plug mine in when the ice gets really thick and then unplug it when there is a hole in the ice.  I keep doing this just for the gas exchange:  not to keep the water totally ice free.  :)
LuAnn

There are things you do because they feel right & they may make no sense & they may make no money & it may be the real reason we are here:  to love each other & to eat each other's cooking & say it was good.  ~  Brian Andreas 

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Offline tootsie

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2009, 07:25:22 AM »
Hi Kittyzee,
I am in a spot too!  The pond is about 18 ft.deep, 100 X 80. Last year we kept putting holes in the ice to take care of the gas problem. We could not get back here for a little over a week. First inspection I found all along with sides of the pond, darn bullheads were dead, I thought well, I was wondering how to get them out of the pond! There must have been at least 100 of them dead! Then I saw some orange, red, and yep, my koi were up to the top , they were frozen in the ice too  :'( I felt so darn bad, ya just get so attached to them, it's crazy but..... I tried to explain to hubby that we needed something to KEEP THE HOLE OPEN, he did suggest a bubbler, also said HOW EXPENSIVE IT IS TO LEAVE IT ON!
I know there are water jets that come up from the bottom of the pond( the whole pond is clay) We have stayed here all summer, now it's darn winter and time to go home, back to the city! Perhaps, if every week we just keep making holes in the ice, everything will be alright? I just can't believe it can cost so much $ to keep my fish safe! o(

Offline Jerry

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2009, 07:25:44 AM »
Ask Webb's water gardens too.  They are members and have super prices.  Click on the link.
Jerry
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Offline tootsie

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2009, 07:31:25 AM »
I will do that, THANK YOU, JERRY  :)

Offline Esther

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2009, 07:58:09 AM »
Tootsie, I use a DIY deicer with a 75 watt bulb. The hole in the ice was open all winter. But last winter I also lost all the fish but one. My pond is small and 10 Koi were big. It has worked 6 years in a row but we wonder if our fish had gotten so big they depleted the water of oxygen. Anyway last winter was pretty hard and don't know if that was the reason. I'm by Grand Rapids.

But without you being there, you'll not know if your electric device stops. So doesn't really matter what you use. I run mine 24/7. There are thermostat doodads that shut off your device when the temps get up to a certain point so it isn't running all the time, just when it is needed.

Offline Kittyzee

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2009, 10:17:00 AM »
Wow Tootsie, it sounds like your pond is deep enough and large enough.  I know many farm ponds freeze in the winter here, and no one keeps a hole in the ice for the fish and the fish are fine.  How did you make holes in the ice?  There are a lot of factors it seems in losing fish over the winter, but the least of them is the cold I think.  Their bodies slow down so much when it's cold they act like they are almost sleeping and they 'stack up' like fish sticks when I see them in the water. 

In your case with you not being there, a bubbler would seem to make sense.  I don't know if I'd want to keep a heating device in the water if I wasn't there.  Don't know if there is anything wrong with it, just personal preference I guess.  More air in the water wouldn't hurt them, and I've seen the water jets also, but don't know if people leave them on here in the winter. It gets so cold that I shut my falls down because I know they will freeze.  Same thing could happen with those jets too I would think. The big thing too is the thermal layering that goes on in the winter in a pond.  If water is constantly 'churning', there can't be warmer layers where they find to 'stack up'--air is good--churning water is not.  They love it in the summer, but in winter it spells disaster. 
LuAnn

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Offline turtlemike

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2009, 12:11:45 PM »
  Yes Kittyzee, my thoughts exactly.  I believe there could be to many fish. 100 doesn't sound to bad but how big is the question.  Pounds of fish per volume of water is what maters  What are the bullheads ? I know of bullhead catfish but I know nothing about goldfish or koi.  I killed some big catfish once in a very fertile small pond full of anacharis and lilies.   I'm sure it's low oxygen that killed them. And this was in the summer in a 7ft deep mud pond.
 Either that or hydrogen sulphide from decaying plants.  Either way I think it was decaying plant mater leading to decaying animal mater, leading to more decaying animal mater creating more hydrogen sulphide and lower O2 levels in a vicious circle. 

   If the pond is in a valley and old then it probably is very fertile and full of very thick muck which eats up O2 and produces poisonous gasses.  Less fish, or a good clean out, or both should help.  I have low nutrient ridge top ponds with high fish populations and sometimes 6-8 in thick ice for weeks at a time with no fish kills.

Offline emm

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2009, 05:03:48 PM »
The Thermopond de-icer is what I have used in the past.  Mine used only 100 Watts so it was not a big draw on the electricity. They used to have a problem with sinking, don't know if they still do.  Wasn't an issue for me.  It did a good job of keeping a small hole in the ice even at -30*C but I have gone through 2 in 6 years:
http://pondsonlinecanada.com/misc11.htm

I bought a Laguna Power Heat de-icer for this year:
http://www.lagunaponds.com/lagunaeng/winterizing/pondheaters.php?link=251

emm

Offline Kittyzee

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2009, 06:22:24 PM »
Tootsie, I was thinking again about your predicament.  And I think that I totally agree with turtlemike.  I honestly couldn't understand why you would lose your fish in a pond that deep and wide, except that you have a very large fish load, even for that size of a pond--especially if they are large fish.  I presume you are talking of bullhead catfish and large koi.  And like mike said, the fish start dying, making more poisonous gas and then the domino affect:  wiping out everything. 

I am sorry you lost your pets, it's devastating.  Anything that will keep a hole in the ice--bubbler or deicer should work.  But checking on it once a week may not work.  I know sometimes in winters here, a hole can freeze in a matter of hours. 
LuAnn

There are things you do because they feel right & they may make no sense & they may make no money & it may be the real reason we are here:  to love each other & to eat each other's cooking & say it was good.  ~  Brian Andreas 

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Offline tootsie

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2009, 09:24:01 AM »
I just walked out to the pond today. Here seems like we have been a month behind, we had short sleeve temps on and off, for a few days, then cold, then sunny and warm! It was at the warm days in late Nov and now Dec, when the ice melted, I saw the koi ( I purchased more of them last early fall),comming up to the surface, I think they were looking for me, AND THEIR FOOD! Yes, they do learn to beg!! I know to stop feeding them early, before the temps get way down! They were down in the deeper part for quite some time! I think they are getting confused with the temps shooting up and down. Hopefully winter is here to stay, I JUST HATE SAYING THOSE WORDS :( I went back to my notes from last winter, I read the pond was freezing over, then melting, then back to freeze. There were also several layers of ice, then 7-8 inches of heavy snow! Yes, the bullheads are catfish, they have those long barbs all along their mouths, and they are very, very, SHARP! I am going to try a net next summer, to try and get as many of those darn things as I can! I talked to a fella awhile back, and he said he would take all of the bullheads I can catch!! Thats all he wants in his pond! I am so happy just knowing that I can give them to someone who actually wants them, LOL
My koi that died were in the center of the pond, in the ice :(  I will check out all of the things you have suggested :) I too was under the impression that 18 ft. of water was perfectly fine for all the fish, I WAS WRONG :'(  I was given some fish this summer too The man was taking out his pond, so just offered them to me. I know one was a koi, but the rest are some kind of orange/red fish. I have yet to identify them. They do not look like koi, also with the disaster of the pond last winter, this spring I found 3-4 batches of that color fish at the deep end of the pond! They did not see me sneak up either! They looked so cute all gathered up like that :) I am not sure where they came from? I thought all the koi remaining were males! Looking at the contour of their heads and abdomen.

Offline CT

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2009, 12:00:46 PM »
I oxygenate one end of my pond and keep a stock tank heater at that end. More likely your fish were looking for oxygen.
You need to oxygenate the pond, get a bubbler, one the appropriate size for your pond. Cull the fish until you have what the pond will support. Tell your husband that you took responsibility for the fish and it's your responsibility to keep them healthy and oxygenated no matter the cost or Mother Nature will thin down the ranks to what the pond will support. I don't mean to be hurtful but that's the facts. I feel sorry for your loss, very sad.
Kay

Offline turtlemike

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2009, 12:55:54 PM »
  Tootsie,   is your pond a valley pond or have a lot of ground draining into it ?  
    Another thing is that from what I hear bullheads are bottom feeders and keep the mud stirred up, and probably at high populations also keep the bottom devoid of plant life which produces O2 and use up available nutrients. That along with the low light levels at the bottom caused by the muddy conditions, again, caused by the bullheads makes me think that there is no photosynthesis going on  except some plankton, and that is pretty much zero in winter.

My theory is that Bullheads are a river fish that always have a supply of fresh water coming down stream.  They make their living digging around eating clams,crayfish,worms and the like.  the population is kept low by predators and the water is usually ice free and moving.

  When you put fish in a pond they are WAY more dependent on bottom dwelling plants for water quality of all kinds.

  Just like we are dependant on the plants and ecosystem built upon them as we make our living on the bottom of the pond we live in,   the earths atmosphere.

  Just like the humans that over populated Easter Island and nearly completely destroyed  EVERY living thing in their little pond, including themselves, your bullheads have overpopulated their pond and destroyed their ecosystem.
  Just like we are doing to ourselves now. And we WILL suffer a similar fate, if we don't stop. NOW !

   Fish don't know any better. They just know that the food is running low and that they better dig more, looking for more food, no plants can grow, and the cycle of death begins.  Just like here with our mountain top removal coal mines.

  I hope we are smarter than fish.   But I don't think so.


  The solution is to kill off all or most of the population and keep the population low. The fish I mean.

  The other thing is that the ecosystem must be restored.  Restored by the continued VERY low or no population of plant eating fish.   You can't put your cows on a newly plowed and seeded pasture !  You have to WAIT until a plant based foundation for the ecosystem has grown up thick before you add your carefully controlled population of fish or cows.  Otherwise disaster is looming.

  If it where me and it were my pond I would be like God during Noah's time.  I would put my koi in an ark and I would drain that pond and kill every fish in it and start over.  If I had the money I would hire someone to clean it out and enlarge and improve it,   and when it refills I would quickly plant the most desirable bottom dwelling and shallow water plants as thickly as possible.

   The best thing to plant is Sago pond weed.  It doesn't grow more than 3 ft tall from the bottom, has lots of very fine soft leaves on a soft plant and out competes most other objectionable surface sprawling plants and algae and keeps the water clear and photosynthesizes all winter because it's evergreen. and it's native.  It appeared in a friend's pond and I transplanted it into all of my ponds and I love it.   Water lilies also have no problem with it and eventually shade it out and take over.

  Also it should make LOTS of food for a few koi,and it's great for ducks because it makes lots of seeds and is great for all of the life forms in your pond like dragonflies etc because they have food and shelter from predators.

   one of the best shore line-shallow water plants is Eleocharis Montevidensis-Spike Rush, mixed with the other Eleocharis species like Chinese water chestnuts and square stem rush.  Also red stem ludwigia- Water purslane.  And also Creeping Jenny.  Peppermint and spearmint are also great but peppermint will get thick sometimes, but if you grab it it pulls out by the finger tips because it grows hydroponically with no roots in the mud. once you thin it it settles down and grows mixed with everything else without being a bully.

   These plants will grow together and totally prevent cattails from starting or control the spread of a small patch that can be held at bay very easily by biannual pulling.  

  I could sell or trade all of these plants to people that are starting a new mud pond, or renewing an old pond but I usually don't have much time for that kind of thing, but if anybody's interested in that sort of thing you could probably talk me into it.  I might post something in the aquatic plants trading forum next spring.

  Another plant that I like is Italian Vallisneria, the small spiral leafed type that's about 8 in tall. It carpets the bottom like the most beautiful green grass and is green all winter in zone 6b. West Virginia.  It's not native but I like it allot.  
 It's hard to get going because it doesn't make seeds and spreads slowly so I use a snorkel and mask and plant it all over.  It might not be able to compete with Sago

  A well balanced mud pond does not need a bubblier or ANY money. Once it's built and planted.
  Believe me I know. I have acres of beautiful mud ponds with high fish populations that freeze over most winters and never a dead fish.  My fish are over populated because I don't have any predator fish like bass.  They are Shiner minnows, fish bait, up to 11 in. long that I plan to sell for fish bait. That's why no bass.

   I have no bubblers or money draining power lines.

  A well balanced mud pond is a beautiful thing for fish and human.

  
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 08:32:16 AM by turtlemike »

Offline 2vetts

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 04:34:51 AM »
never saw a bullhead in a river and that still didn't help with my search for a heater . jerry ,however, did help and it only cost a little over $300 . thanks jerry

Offline Kittyzee

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 04:59:07 AM »
And it ONLY cost a little over $300??!!  To keep a hole in the ice for a few months in the winter?  I don't have that kind of money, is why I suggested a stock tank deicer.  Glad someone could help you find what you were looking for.
LuAnn

There are things you do because they feel right & they may make no sense & they may make no money & it may be the real reason we are here:  to love each other & to eat each other's cooking & say it was good.  ~  Brian Andreas 

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Offline OldMarine

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 10:41:43 AM »
I have a small pond by most standards, it is a 365 gallon inground pond. I tried something last winter that worked better than I thought it would. Last winter I placed a 150 watt submersible aquarium heater in my skimmer/pre-filter reservor, and it kept my pond water temps above freezing even on those nights when the temps dropped down into the teens.

This year I'm using a 300 watt heater in the skimmer/pre-filter where the pump is. This circulates the water thoughout the whole pond somewhat evenly. This week we are having a cold snap here in the northwest that I'm sure will end up on the east coast. Last night the temp was down in the 20's F here, and the water temp stayed well above freezing in my pond. The only problem that using a heater in the pond in the winter is rapid evaporation. So I keep a five gallon bucket of water on the ready indoors.

300 watt submersible aquarium heaters can be purchased for around $40.00 at most of the pet supply stores.

Happy ponding, o(
OldMarine
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Offline Desertponder

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2009, 12:07:37 PM »
Be careful about the submersible aquarium heaters, they will snap in half if they get pulled up out of the water and the cold air hits them. Been there, done that. :D
If you go that route its best to get the titanium ones rather than ones that are glass.

I use a stock tank deicer that isn't all that expensive.
This is the one I use. They run about $32.00 here.

http://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=120e8e08-c71f-42e3-ac3c-dc1d6e1292c6

Its thermostatically controlled so its not on all the time. I only use it during our hard cold in Dec. and Jan. when the water surface will freeze solid.
Shanna
A true-blue kiddie pool, whiskey barrel & stock tank  ponder! :yes:
If it can hold water.....it's a watergarden!

Offline tinkster

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2009, 02:25:10 PM »
My lowes has them.. jsut seen them today.. they are in the 50.00 range. 

Tink

Offline 2vetts

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2009, 11:45:23 AM »
got the new heater and put it in skimmer like first one, opened the lid this morning and it was iced in just like the one i was replacing because it was ''bad'' . guess my fish are going to have a long winter . pond at other house wasn't much of a problem but this one i regret having built .

Offline turtlemike

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2009, 01:00:03 PM »
   As you know I am just a mud pond lily grower and most of the things I say don't apply to small back yard liner ponders with koi, but I post any way because I know that there is at least one person out there who can make use of what I say.

  But I just got an idea that might apply to youall's situation that combines my ideas of letting your underwater evergreen plants provide oxygen with the water heater to keep a hole open idea.

  What if you , instead of putting a heater in the water why not put a 100 watt underwater halogen light near the surface of the water, just under the water, and shine it down on a nice pot of anacharis on the bottom and leave it on 24-7.

  The light would keep the anacharis photosynthesising down deep where you need the oxygen and the light is producing heat up high where you need the heat to melt ice with out drawing up a current of water from deep down and mixing it with colder surface water like a bubblier would.

Offline tootsie

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Re: pond heater-deicer
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2010, 04:49:17 PM »
Hi Everyone,
I have not been here for quite sometime. I helped my Step Dad as much as time would allow, as he had been in a nursing home(out of town) for a few years. Sadly, he passed away a few months ago :( I am still helping with my Dad who is also here in a nursing home! I was able to bring him to the "pond house" quite a few times in the summers where we could get him, and his wheel chair down to the pond to watch the fish play :)
I am still trying to figure out why I lost those fish awhile back! I know there were freeze and thaw many times that winter! I do not have LOTS OF FISH in the pond! Oh, and Kay, to be clear, it is a huge pond, 18 ft. at the deep end. We ALWAYS used the auger TO MAKE HUGE HOLES IN THE ICE, IN CASE THERE WAS A DANGER OF GASES BUILDING UP! We live at the pond house all summer, and every other weekend in the winter! We sure lucked out with the snow this winter!! Hardly had a few inches!! Sorry for all of the other states that got dumped on :(
Patricia o(

 

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