Calling it quits....

[Bearb]

Sorry Blind 'Too, I didn't see your last post while I was posting. If you have liner floating and the water level is above ground level, then I must be wrong. There is a factor at play that I haven't considered. Hopefully Johns, or someone else will come along and explain it, now I am very curious. . . I just don't see how this is possible.

Bryan

[Jerry]

I love this thread cause I get to see all the nifty graphics Michael uses!

[turtlemike]

    The only way that a liner will separate and lift from the ground is if the pressure on the inside of the liner is equal to or less than the pressure of the water on the outside of the liner.  If the water pressure on the outside of the liner is greater than the inside because of a combination of flowing water under pressure, such as with a spring that comes from higher ground. and if that water pressure cannot escape around, by or under the liner, and especially if the top edge of the liner is tightly sealed to the surface leaving no path lower than the height of the water in the pond to easily escape then the water pressure under the liner will exceed the pressure in the pond even if the level of the water is slightly higher than the ground around it and it will hydraulically lift the liner and dump the water over the edge even if it is raised.   Notice that I said SLIGHTLY raised.  If the same pond in this scenario  has it's surface raised enough the pressure inside WILL get higher at every elevation below the original waterline this pressure pushes out on the liner and if you add enough height to the water column it will eventually exceed the pressure required to force the water to take another path even if that path is between the liner and the ground.  If you give the water a way to escape that is below the water level of your pond then the pressure on the outside of the liner will be reduced.  It doesn't mater if the water is coming out of the spring at 100 psi if it can get out easily enough at an elevation low enough below your water level.

   You may say that you dug your pond and there was no spring in the hole..    Maybe I shouldn't have said spring.  
 There are springs that flow all the time, springs that flow only in winter and spring, and then there are itsy bitsy teeny tiny little springs that only flow when it is raining that may get it's water from your neighbors yard that is only 2 ft. higher than your yard and 20 ft away.  If this water flows into an old mole hole  or a small crack in the ground, or just a vein of more permeable soil and emerges through a tiny crack or permeable soil under your liner then that water is under slight pressure Up to the equivalent of 2 ft of water higher than your yards surface.   I doubt if your situation is that sevier but in this example raising the surface of your pond 2.5 ft would solve the problem. Of course you would still have a wet yard when it rains unless you provide a lower way for the water to escape. maybe gravel around the upper few inches below yard elevation around your liner going to a buried pipe.    

  If the water is just surface water as shown in your diagram then the more you raise your water level the tighter the liner presses against the dirt helping to prevent the water from getting between the liner and the dirt in the first place..  As soon as the water in your yard gets as high as he surface of your soil it has enough pressure to equal the water pressure at the same elevation inside your liner, so it has NO problem going between the liner and the ground where they meet at the surface and the water pours down into the hole your liner is set in.  


  Raise the edge of your liner and provide a way for whatever your source of water is to exit easily and your problem is solved.
  I have never had a liner pond but I do know physics.   I hope this easily solves your problem and easy is what you are looking for I believe, after all of your troubles.  

Don't stop ponding for goodness sake !     How are you going to grow my lilies when they finally come on the market if you don't have a pond !    And forget the fish. just get some shiner minnows and enjoy seeing the heron eating them,  he will never get them all.    Follow my advice and you can EASLY enjoy your waterfall,pond   AND the heron.

[Jerry]

Heck  Mike is right.  Try Tilapia, we can always have a fish fry.  They grow anywhere!

[Bearb]

I think Turtlemike hit on the variable I was missing. . . moving water. It appears that you have a large hill in your yard, I wonder how the drainage is set up for the higher ground around your property. If a large amount of water from a large surface area of high ground is draining underground near your property, you essentially are fighting a water column that is much higher than YOUR ground level. As this water moves, it has enough pressure to displace your pond despite the added water weight inside the liner (who knows how high you would have to go to counter act this. . .).

If you could provide an "outlet" (below pond water level) for the water moving under ground, it should solve the problem as Turtlemike pointed out. Unfortunately that would be very difficult to engineer without knowing exactly what is going on, you wold also have to decide where you want this excess water to flow out.

If you decide not to give up and to redo your pond, you may consider a couple things (again just thinking out loud, hopefully someone will chime in on this):

Building the walls up a foot or two above ground would likely solve the problem and brings you closer to the fish.

If you built it in a way to use the hill for the waterfall and built up the sides around the other three sides, you could build in some drainage allowing any water being forced up from below to drain out of the bottom of the "berm" you created building the pond.

[turtlemike]

  Shiners get 10 inches long and are deeelisious.

[Jerry]

Mike I found some for sale, but I don't want a huge quanity.  Do they ship well and where can I get a handful"  Shiners, that is!

[turtlemike]

   Jerry ,They are sold as fish bait here and I think they might be native. I have know idea what bait fish are sold there but if they are legal there you should talk to a fresh water fisherman in your area.  I know you kayak fish in salt water if I remember right.  A fresh water bait store is what you want.   To bad your not closer I have millions of them.

[Jerry]

I can ask Mike, but iv'e been fishing here all my life, so I suspect not.  I can check N. Cal though.

I did Google them but the quantities required were huge.
I just found an article on them as bait fish, but only North of the San Jouquin area.
So legality is an issue.

[Mikey]

I love this thread cause I get to see all the nifty graphics Michael uses!

Yes, but where was Michael 11 years ago when I needed him when I was building my pond?.....

[mascot]

Yes, but where was Michael 11 years ago when I needed him when I was building my pond?.....

I was partying like it was 1999.

[karen J]

Blind 'Too, this thread PROVES that you should not stop ponding. 

If I do ever build another one, I have a spot for it and the waterfalls would come down off the hill.  Might as well utilize that currently useless hill for something!

YES!

If you wanted to save your current pond, the thing to do would be to add drainage tiles/French drain/corrugated drainage piping all around the pond leading out to somewhere that's lower.

The same concept applies to houses. The previous owner of our house had a water problem in the basement, so she paid a lot of money to have a drainage system & sump pump installed. When we moved in, we noticed some puddling on the floor in wet weather. All we did to cure it was:
1- made sure the ground soil was graded away from the house.
2- installed corrugated drainage pipes on all the gutters, buried them in a hand-dug trench, and made sure they emptied far away from the house it a naturally-draining spot.

Lot of work, but well worth it. We haven't had a drop of water in the basement in 10 years, even in torrential rain. The same concept applies to the pond.

Another thing to consider is the unbelievable amount of rain youz Cali's have gotten recently. Don't let it get to you. It will end and you'll be back to your normal desert conditions... hoping for rain.

[bunny56lbc]

I'm sorry to hear u're having so much trouble with u're pond Blind Too ....PLz don't stop posting...I really enjoy all the pictures of Rocky...he's such a handsome bird 

bonnie

[Jerry]

HE IS not GIVING UP PONDING, NO WAY, NO HOW!

[livetogarden]

Yes, but where was Michael 11 years ago when I needed him when I was building my pond?.....

I was partying like it was 1999.

See...this is why I said we need your humor here. You make me laugh, Blind Too  ...and believe me, I REALLY need laughs these days...and not the ones supplied by any of the contractors we've had to deal with lately, those are more laughs from 'how can anyone be this stupid?'
Cath


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