Author Topic: Can I limit water lily size?  (Read 2412 times)

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Offline Bearb

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Can I limit water lily size?
« on: January 27, 2010, 02:00:46 PM »
I was going to wait until the doldrums of winter had passed hoping to get more responses to this, but the cold has me thinking about ponds and spring. I guess I can always commit the slight breach of netiquette and bump this come spring time.
Last year was the first year I had anything resembling success with water lilies. Until 2009, I had only one little lily that struggled to live and never flowered. Last year, I expanded the pond and knew I wanted/needed more lily leaves for cover. Convinced I had conditions that were not conducive to water lily health, I added two more lilies (my new pond is probably only big enough for 1 but certainly not 3). At the same time, I switched to the time release fertilizer (thanks Joyce) and bingo, all three plants thrived. Now I need to manage them. I just can’t bring myself to get rid of one or two but perhaps I should; but which one(s). . .

Is there a cultural/potting practice that can limit the size of these plants while still having blooms? What would be the best way to go about this? I will attempt to list in order of importance the characteristics I would like to curtail:
1-   Plant spread- the pond is not very deep (just under 2 feet) and the leaves seem to stretch out too much. It would be great if the leaf stems would not get so long that the leaves travel so far away from the crown. I doubt anything can be done (short of a deeper pond) to prevent this.
2-   Leaf size- can I dwarf the leaf size (I’d even be okay with smaller flowers) without reducing the number of blooms? The original lily had very small leaves and I thought it was a miniature of some sort; once I got it healthy, the pads got much bigger.
3-   Number of leaves- will removing many, most of the leaves deter flowering?

All are hardy lilies, one unnamed pink, one that was labeled as attraction but who knows and arc ‘en ciel (I got this one because I thought I was never going to get flowers so why not have interesting leaves).
Bryan

Offline miguynmkoi

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2010, 02:54:31 PM »
It's good to plan ahead!  I have a large collection of lilies I have purchased from members here.  Mostly trops, a few hardies.  When my plants get too big I divide them, even the hardies.  Most make it over the years others disappear!  I love a very full lily pond.  Since you fertilize with Joyce's recipe yo should do fine with blooms.  My only problem with less than normal blooms is that I don't get enough sun on them during the day.

Answers to your questions that I can relate to:
1.  This happens with some of mine.  Maybe the water isn't deep enough?  The top of the lily pots are at 2 ft deep.  Someone with the right info can help you here.
2.  There are miniature lilies out there but if yours is a regular it would be normal size unless it's struggling.
3.  I remove less than perfect leaves all the time even the healthy ones just to thin out the mass.  Flowering still happens.

You'll get better help from those who know their lilies, just hold on!

Offline emm

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2010, 05:58:03 PM »
My pond has a deep area.  The hardy lily (Attraction type) in that position has 4 feet of water over the crown and a larger than desirable spread for my small pond.  I remove lots and lots of leaves and still have plenty of blooms.  It is a very aggressive lily.  I remove the leaves from all my hardies pretty mercilessly to create space for some of the less aggressive lilies including a mini lily (Helvola).  I also like to have some open water in the pond.  I fertilize once early in the spring with a slow release fertilizer similar to the one used by Joyce and have large, plentiful blooms all summer long.  So in my experience, removing leaves from hardy lilies does not noticeably reduce the number of blooms.  I also remove spent buds.  I also keep them is smallish pots - mostly oil drainage pans.  Means dividing every year but at least I can have several varieties in my pond.

There are plenty who have more experience than I do with growing waterlilies but removing leaves and cramping their pots seems to work for me.

emm

Offline PondmaninAL

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2010, 06:17:41 PM »
I have a big collection of water lilies. They went from the smallest tropical (N. minuta) and hardy (N. "Helvola") to the largest exotic tropicals (Victoria cruziana and Euryale ferox). I have many regular hardies, day and night blooming tropicals, and viviparous tropicals. Many no names and a few named. As far as dwarfing, I can only tell you about doing it to Victoria. Hardies, you can reduce the number of leaves but you can't stop them from spreading. Maybe there is someone who can help you more than me.
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Offline tugo

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2010, 02:04:08 PM »
With my hardies, I try to arrange the suitable depth of the plant by trial and error but I do not cut off the healthy leaves, just thinking that they may support the rhizom but it is just my guess.

Offline Bearb

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2010, 02:11:36 PM »
Thanks all, I am getting some good responses. Keep them coming. I'd like to hear as many opinions as possible; hopefully, by the time they start to grow I can process all the responses into a viable plan. . .

Bryan

Offline turtlemike

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2010, 03:17:19 PM »
  I agree with everybody else but I'll go through the details anyway.

  1.Deeper water will just make the leaves spread farther.  Shallow water will make the plant more compact with leaves that will tend more to pile up above the surface and crowd together with shorter leaf stems. this might hide the flowers if they are not held high.  

  Ken landon leaf prunes once a week and says that it makes them flower more and stay very compact , even a plant like mayla.
  
  Small pots with just enough fertilizer to keep the plant growing and green, no more.
  
   Divide yearly so that you will not only keep the number of leaves down, minimizing leaf pile up but some plants make many tuberoids as I call them and dormant crowns.  these dormant roots, or stems and crowns as they really are, rhizomes, more than really crowding the plant and making it produce less flowers, what these dormant rhizomes do is demand food since they are not making leaves or food they are basically parasites on the plant, dragging it down.
  I believe that these dormant rhizomes and tuberoids also somehow chemically inhibit flowering in nearby crowns that are not dormant since if you fertilize these plants they still won't flower like they should even though they have plenty of nutrients, they are not excessively crowded above the surface because the dormant crowns are not putting out leaves. they are not crowded by roots from the dormant crowns because the dormant crowns don't have roots.
  My idea is that the chemicals that trigger and maintain dormancy in these dormant crowns is migrating to the nearby growing crowns and inhibiting there growth and flowering just like the plant normally does in the fall as these same dormancy hormones build up and trigger winter dormancy.  Removing these parasitic inhibitors by dividing is one of the most important flower producing things you can do no mater how big the plants are or how crowded they are, either by each other or by a small pot.  
 I grow my plants in beds in big mud ponds with adequate fertility and complete sun.  These plants soon show how they respond to what people call overcrowding because I never divide or thin them.  I have noticed different behaviours in different plants. I will try to describe this continuum by dividing it up into three parts , the two extremes and the middle.
 One extreme is a plant like Clyde Ikins that very rarely divides or makes tuberoids.  A plant like this will show very little negative effects from close proximity to other growing crowns because it makes almost no dormant crowns or tuberoids Very desirable for people who hate to re-pot every year.  My Clyde Ikins bed is many years old and is still not "overcrowding " and flowers like crazy.  
 The other extreme is a plant like Colorado.  It produces very many dormant crowns and tons of little tuberoids. within 2 years my bed of Colorado quit flowering altogether,4-5 flowers the whole summer from a whole bed of plants.!   Colorado rhizomes grow pretty slowly in my moderately fertile pond and the non dormant crowns can't grow themselves far enough away from the dormancy hormones being produced that keep the dormant crowns dormant and they never flower. I must diverge for a minute and explain something to the people that I can hear in my head saying " I have Colorado and I haven't repoted it in two years or more and It flowers great for me " Tinkster.  I have a Colorado plant in a pot that I have not touched in three years at least and it still flowers pretty well.  The explanation is this.  The Colorado is planted in a pot and of course does great the first year. Then I have to explain what happens next. I have also noticed that when a lily like this is first planted it will rapidly make three or more growing crowns and when a plant like this divides or rests for the winter it makes a whole slew of little dormant tuberoids. These tuberoids, the next year prevent the new crowns that grow from last years rhizomes  from growing fast or putting out leaves and roots,  as well as slightly slowing the flowering and growth of last years growing crowns depending on how big the pot is and how fertile the soil.  A big pot with fertile soil will make a faster growing crown that can get farther away from the nearest group of tuberoids and dormant crowns. less hormones because of distance from the source and unoccupied fertile soil.   So if your pot is small and your soil is not to fertile inhibition is high in the second year.  If your pot is big and fertile you might get by with another year without repoting. but to make this quicker lets assume a small pot and not super fertile soil.   Yet another thing I have noticed oddly enough is that when a plant is in a pot it will grow fast at first then slow down as described, producing many tuberoids. But then when the fastest crown reaches the edge of the pot and escapes and puts down roots outside of the pot a strange thing happens. The crown hits open space to grow and the roots grow to the bottom of the pond and find all of the fertility it needs. This immediately invigorates that crown but none of the others and the big crown grows and flowers like normal, which for Colorado is lots.  For some reason this crown will dominate the whole pot and seems to prevent the other growing crowns from growing as fast and escaping the pot. maybe they are just left in the dust of dormancy hormones so to speak. As well as normal apical dominance from this one vigorous crown. I deliberately make use of this trait to create lots of tuberoids and crowns in pots with my seedling plants. then when the plant grows a crown outside the small pot the plant grows to its full potential to meet my judgement.   Remember I'm ONLY talking about hardy lilies here but hardies share a trait with tropicals  that completes the picture I'm trying to draw here and that is that a hardy lily when highly fertilized does not make NEARLY as many tuberoids and offshoots as a stressed plant. Just like a vigorous tropical rarely produces reproductive tubers.  Probably the same thing going on.   This adds an even greater inhibition to the tuberoids and crowns still in the pot and there they stay.  If you break off the dominant crown, Tinkster, then the crown closest to the dominant crown that was just removed will rapidly replace the crown just removed and continue to dominate the pot.  Removing this dominant crown periodically Keeps the rapidly growing apically dominant crown physically close to the recessive crowns and the domination of the dominant crown is enhanced and maintained through proximity.
  A third plant type I can describe that will complete the picture even further is a plant that makes lots of tuberoids and dormant offshoots but abandons them after a year or two and lets then die.  To me this is the best of both worlds because as a lily seller, in the future at least, I want a plant that will not overcrowd rapidly and stop flowering for my customers, and me too, but will divide rapidly for increasing my stocks for sale.  I can't name a plant for you that is like this that you would know. The ones I know of are my seedlings that you would have no experience with.  One of these plants that I consider a breeder because it blooms like crazy slowed down it's flowering one year because of tuberoids etc.
  Then the next year was back to it's old self.  I dug around and discovered that most of it's dormant crowns and tuberoids had died and rotted freeing the growing crowns from their inhibitions.

  In number 2 I think you answered your own question.  A smaller pot and less fertiliser will make a smaller spread, leaves, and flowers and depending on the variety should still bloom well.

  I think I answered question 3 pretty well already. according to Ken it makes them flower more because the plant produces flowers AS it produces leaves. In other words it HAS to produce leaves TO produce flowers, the more leaves produced the more flowers produced and as long as the plant is receiving Lots of light and enough nutrients it will have more than enough photosynthetic area to feed its self and flower well with most of it's leaves removed or at least it's older leaves removed weekly.  When you remove leaves the plant says Hey something ate my leaves so it produces more and more flowers along with them.   I believe that more light in particular increases the ratio of flowers to leaves produced.
 Also fertilizer, especially in certain varieties.  My plant Fairy Skirt loves fertilizer and really cranks out the flowers. A plant like mayla will still flower well but will mostly just get leafy.


   To summarize, To many dormant tuberoids etc, low light and very low fertility are the main factors that cause lilys to not bloom.  Everything else like growing many  GROWING crowns crowded together, small pots, and moderately restricted fertility will only make smaller less leafy plants with smaller flowers not less flowers.

   At least that is my opinion.  And now you know everything I know about the subject I hope that was enough.

Offline Bearb

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2010, 08:30:44 PM »
Wow thanks Turtlemike! I really appreciate you taking the time to lay that all out for me. I can tell you are really into your lilies. Your  thorough observations of such a large sample of plants is very useful. Well done!
Bryan

Offline tugo

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2010, 09:29:03 AM »
Thanks Turtlemike, it was very informative. You are very helpful by giving so much valuable experiences of yours.

Offline Julles

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2010, 09:57:33 AM »
We had several threads over the summer about the minis.  They really are CUTE - see if you can find the threads, or just Google.

Say, Bearb - I grew up in St. Louis.  Near Southtown Famous-Bar back when it existed (Kingshighway & Chippewa), then lived off Cherokee Street and then near Soulard Market.  Most of my family is still on the south side, St. Louis Hills, etc. 

I've been gone nearly 30 years, but was back in 2004 for a week's visit, and I really love the city.  It's hip, sophisticated, green, I saw NOT ONE pot hole the whole time, preservation-minded as to its older buildings, easy to get around.... if it weren't for the facts that it snows and that my parents live there, I might even think of moving back.

What area do you live in? 

Offline Bearb

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2010, 05:08:39 PM »
Cool, I currently live in Oakville (South County). In my city days, I lived in Tower Grove East, Soulard and the Grand and Gravois area. My grandparents used to live in St. Louis Hills. . .

Don't let the snow and parents keep you away, after all we have the Cardinals!
Bryan

Offline Julles

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2010, 06:15:13 AM »
Wow, that is COOL!  Most people, when they say they live in St. Louis, really they live in, like, Ballwin or Clayton.  But you are truly a CITY gal!

Very cool.


Offline Bearb

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2010, 11:58:43 AM »
Well, I do live in the St. Louis County (rather than City) now, but yeah I was/am a city gal (ER Guy  :))

Anyone else live in St. Louis? I have often wondered if/how many St. Louisans are on this site.

Bryan
Bryan

Offline turtlemike

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 07:38:48 AM »
  Also there are lots of plants that don't get big. I have a few but they tend to get forgotten around here because they are planted in shallow water and they have to compete with the spike rush and they just sit there until I get around to testing them out in a big pot of fertile soil.
 Here are some pics of a tiny little plant that I keep around but have never fully tested in a big pot.  Extremely variable leaves as you can see.  Like a teeny tiny pink version of Yellow watermelon with occasional blood red leaves with no veining. Go figure.   

This plant came from a Mex cross plant that has 12 inch dia leaves and 8-10 ft. spread.
  When crossed with anything,  it makes these teeny tiny itsy bitsy little plants with interesting leaves almost every time   I am going to crank out the seedlings from this plant and see what it can do because there needs to be more very small plants of high quality for people with small gardens. I expect these seedlings would produce a fair number of giant seedlings.
  This goes to show that a small plant may not be the best to use when breeding for small size and vice versa.
It basically boils down to this. A good plant for breeding is a plant that makes seedlings that look like what you want, not necessarily a plant that looks like what you want.

Offline Julles

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 08:19:24 AM »
Hmmm.   If you'd like to test to see if that yellow one would grow in a Texas pond, I'd be willing to do the experiment for ya. {:-P;;   

Offline turtlemike

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2010, 11:36:12 AM »
  The pic on top is the same plant as the other three pics. It is a scanned film photo so the color is a little off. 

  The other 3 pics are digital and more accurate.  The flower does vary a lot.  I need to get it out of the weeds and see how it does.

Offline tinkster

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2010, 07:22:25 PM »
Last year my pond had almost no flowers, which is unusual for me and a bit depressing!  Colorado was the only one that bloomed but its grown out of its pots and the tubers just float in the water and grow.. I just break them off and send to people without ever repotting her. I dont really think i could get it out of the pond now if I had to .. hehehe... anyway I blammed my lack of blooms last year on a very rainy year.  I am hoping its not that all my lilies have bloomed out and I need to start over.. if so watch out TMike I will be there with my buckets early spring :)

I think next time I come I will concentrate on your shallow areas with those small plants. thats really what I need but those are the ones the koi seem to strip down in one day.  I had to move my red/pink minature you gave me out of the big pond.

tink

Offline turtlemike

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Re: Can I limit water lily size?
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2010, 06:44:24 AM »
  Tink, the red -pink miniature is Joann Pring I think.

 

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