Author Topic: What to do...what to do.....about the fish.... (Read 2635 times)

PondJoy · « **on:** March 26, 2010, 01:23:49 PM »

Hi everyone.....don't laugh.....but I need to know what you think of my situation and what suggestions you may have.

I posted that I was giving away some goldfish this weekend....well, here's the rest of the story.

My pond is prob. 500 gallons and only about 18 inches deep. I have one beautiful butterfly koi that is about 14 inches tip to tail (he grew up in this pond).....the rest are goldfish...all 24 of them! Most are prob. 5 inches approx. and there are 4 babies about 2 inches each. I never used to feed my fish...for all the right reasons....but when the koi got so big I decided he needed to eat. So I prob feed them a few times per week. Now I'm not so sure since he is getting bigger whether to keep feeding. But I digress. **Please note that I have crystal clear water ALL the time with excellent filtration and oxygenation. I have never had any issues with my water.

Here is my problem. DH wants to get rid of a lot of the goldfish (I have no problem with that) so we can get another koi...says he likes them better and only one lby itself ooks funny. I know that koi are messier and that they eat plants.....have been able to deal with those issues pretty well so far....and as I said my water is ALWAYS crystal clear. So what do you think of his idea? I don't need a reminder of how many gallons per fish, etc. 'cause I already know that I technically have too many for that space. BUT maybe some of you have "too many fish" and don't really care what other people think...

I really appreciate your feedback. I wanted to get rid of the koi and just have goldfish since I do want to do what is best for the fish, but he has very strong feelings the other way round and since he doesn't have strong feelings most of the time about anything, I was thinking I might go along with it!

Thoughts?

dsep · « **Reply #1 on:** March 26, 2010, 02:30:24 PM »

Give the goldfish away and get the koi a friend then everyone will be happy! Good Luck

Bearb · « **Reply #2 on:** March 26, 2010, 03:09:21 PM »

I know nothing about koi and am far from an expert about ponding and fish load, but I'll opine anyway (now would be the time to retrieve your grain of salt). It seams to me that water volume requirements are arbitrary at best and misleading at worst. What is really important is filtration (particularly bio-filtration). If you have the capacity to handle the bio-load of two large koi you SHOULD be okay (to a point). Let's say this load takes x amount of filter capacity and is successfully running in y amount of water, if you double the amount of water, have you made it better? The extra water (again I don't really know what I am talking about) would only be giving you a better buffer should a problem arise. It starts getting a little dicey when you start talking about halving the water volume. If you went to 1/2y the filter should be able to keep up, yes, no? I don't know. I doubt you could get by with x filter capacity feeding into a 10 gallon tank with two koi stuffed in. One thing makes me nervous, you make two references to crystal clear water, but never mention water quality. I am sure you know the difference but it is worth mentioning since lurkers who don't may be reading this. Clear water doesn't necessarily mean it is healthy for fish; if you put a goldfish in a bowl with no biofilter, the fish will probably die of ammonia poisoning before the water looks bad.

There are other factors to consider as well. Is the pond physically big enough for two koi to live happily? Do koi require a certain depth to swim vertically? Is it long enough for them to get exercise swimming back and forth? are there water quality factors (other than ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) that would not be handled by filtration and water changes. For instance, I have heard (but not researched for myself) that fish release a hormone (into the water) that can limit growth in an overstocked environment. Over time the concentration of this hormone could build up and make your fish react as though they are overstocked. . . Is this true? How long does this hormone last (and contribute to the "build up" before it breaks down)? How much water would it take to dilute 2 koi worth of this hormone? Would water changes alleviate this?

Like I said, I don't really know. My reason for this (I now realize, very long) post, is to provide some food for thought and give the more experienced fish-keepers something to acknowledge or refute. I am not saying it will or won't work.

Bryan

miguynmkoi · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2010, 04:24:10 PM »

After around 10 years of keeping way too many koi in my small 600 gal pond I have done well by my feesh. I make sure to have bio-filters and great pumps galore to keep them happy.

I think if you got rid of all the goldfish and kept a couple other new koi you should be fine. But you must remember to make sure the water is healthy for them and that they can swim around comfortably when they get big (and they do get big). I say go for it!

marla · « **Reply #4 on:** March 27, 2010, 09:50:50 AM »

the rule of thumb I always heard was 250 gals per koi, and 100-150gals for gold fish. Yes filtration is a key if you are overloaded as is oxygenation, especially in the summers heat. If you can find koi and or goldfish of one sex then you won't have to worry about babies and overcrowding with that.

Bearb · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2010, 10:52:05 AM »

100 gallons per goldfish seems like an awful lot to me. I have about 500 gallons with 25 goldfish ranging from 1/2 babies to about 5 inches. Water test have never given any indication that my biofilter is not up to snuff. In fact, Last year I had to increase my pond size because the goldfish were multiplying so fast; the year before I was at about 100-150 gallons total (with the same 25 fish load). I ran the same filter setup without any problems. 25 small goldfish do not even look crowded in 500 gallons. Of course, these will get bigger and continue to multiply.

Bryan

Rad Michelle · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2010, 05:54:12 PM »

My two cents I butterfly koi also do t get as big as reg koi... So a few butterflies an primo filtration should work out. iPhone spelling sorry

PondJoy · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2010, 06:59:31 PM »

You all are terrific.....I love this place!

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'll keep you posted what I decide.

Johns · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2010, 10:18:56 PM »

I know that some find me a bit "know it all" on some subjects, but the reason I have a strong opinion on so many subjects is because I've screwed up so many times over the years that I've "been there, done that" on a lot of stuff. As Grandpa Amos McCoy (Walter Brennan) used to say on The Real Mccoys, "No brag, just fact".

You can keep a 30 inch koi in 30 gallons of water if you have adequete aeration and biofiltering. BUT! If the power goes off, and it eventually will, you will have 20 pounds of DEAD fish.

Here's the deal: You need to stock your pond with an eye on the possibility of power failure. Now, if your filter system is keeping your water quality in good shape, your koi can usually survive 3 to 5 days with no biofiltering. BUT, (again) in a heavily stocked pond with no aeration, oxygen is soon depleted and the largest fish die first. Therefore, the key to keeping your koi alive even for several hours with no aeration, especially in hot weather, is maintaining a healthy relationship between the pounds of fish in your pond and the natural oxygenation via suface tension of the pond water. This is dependant on surface area, NOt gallons in the pond.

Interested???? See my webpage "FISH LOAD CALCULATOR" at http://www.gardenendeavors.com/rack/web17.html . Key to successful calculation: A numeral MUST be entered for every fish size, even if zero.

BTW, this calculator has been on line since February, 1999, and I've never received any negative feedback on it.
It would be interesting if some of you would post the results for your ponds, wouldn't it????

frogman3 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 28, 2010, 09:33:49 AM »

Johns, age + experience= good results

Now I will show my age :'( I remember watching Grandpappy Amos in the real McCoy's.
I used to do a good imitation of his Squeaky voice at one time. "Gosh Dangit little Luke"
What ya think?

Johns · « **Reply #10 on:** March 28, 2010, 10:48:13 AM »

Frogman, i think you nailed it! You sound just like Walter!

karen J · « **Reply #11 on:** March 28, 2010, 06:40:27 PM »

Quote from: Johns on March 27, 2010, 10:18:56 PM

BTW, this calculator has been on line since February, 1999, and I've never received any negative feedback on it.
It would be interesting if some of you would post the results for your ponds, wouldn't it????

Sounds like an interesting experiment. I would really like to do this. I know my filtration is oversized for the poundage of fish in the pond, but I've never calculated poundage in relation to surface area.

Julles · « **Reply #12 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:44:40 AM »

I can't imagine a pond without koi. I say Go For It! Especially if you can keep it to a total of just two fish.

Be sure you have a filter and clean it regularly.

Johns, I have copied and kept a good many of your posts. Sometimes it's good to be a Know It All - especially when you share your knowledge!

Bearb · « **Reply #13 on:** March 29, 2010, 09:11:01 AM »

I did the calculator and was surprised. I knew I was not (yet) overstocked, but I didn't know I had that much room to spare. I will be pushing it when/if my goldies reach 12 inches, I'll have to thin the heard. Though I have a visiting bird that makes sure the fish don't get too big. . .

miguynmkoi · « **Reply #14 on:** March 29, 2010, 09:39:54 AM »

I know the proper rules and I do calculate..........My weakness is getting attracted to fish shops and every fish calls out my name and takes my money so I can bring them home

PondJoy · « **Reply #15 on:** March 29, 2010, 06:38:41 PM »

I'm so glad there are so many of you "know it alls" out there....how would we learn? That site is great...it made me feel so much better. My stats are below. (my goldfish are not that big)

Pounds of Fish in your pool: 3 pounds.

Pool Surface Area: 48 square feet.

Maximum Fish Load for Your Pool: 11 pounds (Assumes working bio-filter and aereation systems)

Recommended Fish load for Your Pool: 7 pounds. (Assumes possibility of periodic power outages of less than 24 hours affecting biofilter and aereation during hot weather) CAN YOU SAY "HURRICANE"?

I gave away 9 goldfish this weekend...what a job! It was quite funny....harder to catch than I thought. It didn't take them long to figure out what was happening.

Thanks to everyone! I am now going to think about fish shopping for one more koi......

Julles · « **Reply #16 on:** March 29, 2010, 06:49:46 PM »

The blue ones are pretty cool. I have one that is quite definately blue (not greyish blue like many of them), and he has black on his fins, along his sides, and around his eyes. I call him "Phantom."

PondJoy · « **Reply #17 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:03:03 PM »

Wow...sounds terrific....did you ever get a camera so you can take pictures of them?

Julles · « **Reply #18 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:11:24 PM »

In fact, I do have a digital camera now, $20 at a garage sale. Nikon ColorPix 4600. And got a charger, the thing to load pics onto the computer, etc. at Radio Shack. The guy said I coulda paid $20 more and gotten a new camera, with instructions and all the latest gizmos.

Problem is, I can find the manuel on Manuels.com, but it's hard to read, scrolling from screen to screen. I need to buy one that I can hold in my hands and flip actual pages.

Until then, I have no clue how to use it. : (

Johns · « **Reply #19 on:** March 29, 2010, 08:38:02 PM »

julles,

Print the manual. If you don't have a printer, go to the library, bring up the manual, and print it there.

Julles · « **Reply #20 on:** March 30, 2010, 07:10:52 AM »

It's more than a hundred pages. That's why I haven't printed it off. I only need a few of the pages, but there's now way to print just part of it. And it won't allow me to copy-and-paste to another program.

Bearb · « **Reply #21 on:** March 30, 2010, 07:39:42 AM »

Julles, I'm not familiar with manuals.com are the manuals in PDF format? If so, you should be able to choose what pages to print. . . file, print, when the print setting window pops up, you should be able to switch from print whole document (or something like that) to "print pages" this will open up the area to tell which pages to print. Does the (assuming it is a) PDF have bookmarks? If so, you will see a little book icon with ta blue bookmark on it, click there and it should open a menu of places you can jump to. Failing that, go to the Table of Contents and find the page number you want, then type that into the display page number window and hit enter (this may be tricky at first since the page numbers will be a bit off but all you need to do is figure out how many pages to add to the page number listed in the Table of Contents).