Quick lotus question

[replicity]

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking around for a while, and this is my first post.

I'm growing an asiatic pink lotus in a whiskey barrel (Joyce's method), and it currently has about 10 floating leaves on it. The tuber itself is in direct contact with the dirt and the rest of the dirt is covered by about an inch of gravel.

The growth tips have started sending out roots, but the roots are in the water -- a few inches above the gravel. Is this going to be a problem? Should I remove the gravel so the roots can find the dirt?

This is my first time starting lotus from tuber, so I don't really know how it's supposed to happen. When I planted it, I assumed the roots would grow from the tuber down into the dirt.

Thanks for any help!

[tranquility]

It will dig down on its own...I'd leave it and let it do what it does naturally...
Lawanna

[Rad Michelle]

 second that! They may be fragile but very tough once they are going I usually lay my tubers right on top of dirt, a few runners at first stay above soil line where I can see roots then it dives down I can post a picture if u like

[matherfish]

I concur. Do not replant your lotus now as you will end up killing it. I would suggest that you not cover you soil with stones next time so as not to cause difficulties for the growing tips to grow into the soil. The plant should do fine, however.

[Johns]

Stones will not bother the lotus. You have done everything right so far, leave it alone and enjoy.   But remember, my advice is worth only what you pay me for it, and I have only been growing  (And selling) lotus for 20 years.

[matherfish]

Sorry, I thought you were talking about an inch of gravel on your soil. I do not have Johns experience, only 15 years of lotus growing, and 8 years of selling, but I do sell hundreds of lotuses each year, and currently have over 40 varieties and 80+ plants, not to mention the number of plants for sale.
I am not as familiar with Asiatic Pink as I have not grown that variety personally, but I do know of other grower/sellers who are very familiar with it. It is a bowl or dwarf lotus, and not a larger growing lotus.  Some of my smaller growing, bowl and dwarf variety lotuses, are more delicate than the bigger ones. Even with the bigger growing lotuses, I still advise against the gravel.
The reason I suggest no gravel next time is three-fold. 1) It makes it more difficult for your tuber to grow into the soil, slowing its growth down.  2) When you divide the plant in a year or two, all of that gravel will be mixed into your soil making it harder to clean the tubers as their roots and runners will be entangled with the stones. 3) The gravel also has a strong chance of breaking the new growing tips on your tubers while you are trying to get the tubers out of the soil when dividing it.
This is my recommendation and advice from my experience. At least it is there for you to consider.

[Marie Fisher]

Maybe you can go in and carefully pick up rock at time and get the rocks away from
your lotus tuber. Sounds like you got good tuber, but those rocks are most definitely
hendering its development. I agree completely with what matherfish and Rad said
about rocks.  I've been growing lotuses almost 30 years and will not use rocks
as they are too hard to get the tubers out of there, not to mention hendering the
growth.

Marie Fisher

[Johns]

Everyone develops their own methods in propagating and growing aquatic plants and over years of practice use the methods that work best for them.  Matherfish has undoubtedly had success with his methods, but I have had success with mine as well. He does not like rocks on top of lotus plants and I do.  Here is the reasoning behind my procedure:  First of all, for bowel lotus, I use Alabama brown gravel, since the bowel lotus are small and I use small pots for them.  For full size lotus I use larger rocks, up to 2 inches in length. Matherfish is correct that the bottom layer of rocks will become embeded in the underlying soil, but that has never presented a problem for me.  After dumping the top layer of rocks out of the pot, I use a strong stream of water to dislodge any other rocks and all of the soil, so I can separate the tubers into viable portions.  I have never noticed any damage to growing points during this process that I could attribute to the rocks.  Now as to why I use the rocks in the first place:  In my own ponds and in the ponds of most of my customers over the years, the lotus pots are placed in ponds that also contain fish.  Without the rock layer in the top of the pot, fish tend to root around in the pots, dislodging soil and muddying the water as a result.  Including the rock layer requires an additional cost to me in producing a potted lotus for sale, but for me the process has been successful and seemingly worthwhile.  Of course, other procedures that work for other producers can produce satifactory results for them, but I am committted to maintaining my current practice for the reasons stated above.

[replicity]

Thanks for the input, everyone.

It's just pea gravel -- no large rocks or anything. I have been covering the pots that go into my pond (with fish) for so long that it's become second nature, and it didn't occur to me that it was unnecessary for the lotus until after the deed was done.

I'm thinking I'll go in and get rid of as much as possible without disturbing the roots/tuber, and will refrain from adding any next.

First three aerial leaves opened today 

[matherfish]

Glad you are getting ariel leaves! They will start coming faster before long, and then the blooms! Congratulations!!

[matherfish]

An alternative to stones to keep the fish from being a problem is putting sand on top of the soil. 1/2 inch deep or less is sufficient.

[Johns]

I don't mean to start a  "rocks on the bottom" type of never ending argument here, but I can tell you from my experience that 1/2 inch of sand to a 25 inch koi would be like a house of straw to the big bad wolf.  Washed creek sand would be fine as a topping in a container planted bowl lotus where the only livestock are likely to be mosquito larva and minnows, but in an environment populated with koi I promise you that your lotus tubers will soon be fending for themselves in an empty bucket. 

Now I will attest that while I was growing water lilies and lotus for sale, I only allowed small goldfish in those ponds for mosquito control, as I did not want the fish taking bites out of lily leaves.  And I have long known of the method of lotus planting whereby you first put clay in the container, then sand, then simply lay the tuber on top of the sand and allow it to find its own way to the bottom, and I have used that method from time to time.  But, when the lotus or lily left my ponds in the hands of its new owner, it always had a layer of stones or pea gravel in the top of the container, since I knew that the plant was going to be immersed in a fish environment.

Now just let me say that as always, everyone has their own opinion, but if you will go back to my last post above you will note that my opinion regarding lotus planting in a fish inhabited environment actually has reasons behind it rather than just because I said so.  Everyone may debate whether my reasons are rational or irrational and reach their own conclusions.  Sometimes we do something the way we were told years ago by someone else and continue to do it that way years on without question.  I was taught to sucker tomato plants and did so for many years until a professional horticulturist (Dr. Carolyn Male, for those who care) convinced me that doing so actually reduced production rather than increase it, proving that your never to old to learn as long as you can keep an open mind and not feel threatened by a new idea.  I now do not sucker my tomatoes, but have not as yet been dissuaded from placing stones in lotus pots.  I await any convincing reasons to desist.

[matherfish]

Sorry. Not arguing,Johns, but Replicity asked about a lotus in a half barrel container. I do not believe there would be a 25" koi in the barrel. I have put stones in the pots and for the reasons I pointed out, I learned to do differently. I sucker tomatoes so that I can tie the plants up off the ground, and to make the tomatoes bigger, not more tomatoes. Everyone has their own ideas for doing things.  I have never had a 25" koi in my pond, but I would think that koi that big would even tear up pebbles. Each member can decide what works best for them.

[Joyce]

Good observation John. 
I was hoping someone else would say something. 
Was afraid people would pot up koi-pond lotus with sand as top dressing. (not just barrel plantings)
Even my little 6-10" fry from last year can wreak havoc with sand. 
LI is a very sandy place so the mud pond gets a sand coating over the bottom after every wind storm.
The koi make quick work of it mixing it into the mud bottom, sucking it up and spitting it out until it's all mixed together.
Glad it's not a big deal in the lotus pond because they sure do make a mess. 

Years ago, in my pond in NC, which was lined, from wind storms we used to get 1/2" of sand every month.
(sometimes a LOT more during tropical storms and hurricanes)
The koi, all sizes from small 1" fry and up to the 2 footers would play with it all day.
I think their favorite thing to do was root in the sand. 

In a barrel pond setting, even gold fish would play with it and make a mess.

[matherfish]

Joyce, I do not believe that your mud bottom lotus pond gets enough sand covering in every wind storm to make that comparison. While I can see that koi might "play" in the sand, I doubt that a windstorm on LI would put more than a "dust covering" on your pond. Not what I was talking about. I also do not believe you put gravel on the bottom of your mud pond to keep the koi from digging up your lotuses. Situations determine the solution. The question was about a barrel pond.
As to your pond in NC, if you had large koi in the pond playing in the sand that blew in, the sand would be stirred up for the others to play in. Again, the sand was blown in over a period of time, not a half inch put in at one time. In your post you did not say that you ever put the 1/2 sand over the pots at one time, only that sand blew into the pond. I have covered pots with pebbles and I know the results for me.
Regardless, if you chose to put stones or pebbles on your lotus pot, you will have more difficulty when dividing them. But a 24 inch koi will still be a problem with the pebbles. That is why most ponders with fish that big do not have planted plants in with them.
By giving different perspectives, we each learn, and can see various alternatives. Each ponder can try one or the other, deciding which would be better in their situation.

[Rocmon]

I don't have a lot of experience but, I have used small pebbles in topping potted lilies in the past as well as aquatic expensive cat litter gravel. I don't use pebbles anymore as they are more difficult to deal with at repotting time and the cat litter gravel is to costly and can build up in my poor bottom drain line. I too like to use a layer of sand, which I then clean off the bottom of the pond with a net for the rest of the growing season and I don't have koi. The sand flushes easily through the bottom drain pipe.

We try different things and use what seems to work best. I too don't see a need to use, or remove gravel from a whiskey barrel. Though I'm only familiar with oak 1/2 wine barrels... (French or American usually toasted.) After the raccoons have had their fun, it doesn't matter what soil I use in my lotus pots...

[matherfish]

  Rocmon. I  am sure that neither would stop a playful racoon.

[Johns]

Matherfish,
You have just entered a subject  that should you have an open mind that I am betting you will revise your opinion on: pruning tomatoes.
This has nothing to do with ponds, but until Jerry decides to move the post to Chit Chat, I will attempt to elucidate you here.  But just to mention ponds, I have been growing tomatoes far longer than I have been ponding.

Between me and my late father there is the sum total of 110 years of experience growing tomatoes.  During most of that time pruning determinate tomatoes to two vines was SOP.  But ten years ago I began corresponding with Dr. Carolyn Male on Garden Web about tomatoes in general and found out about her new book at that time on heirloom tomatoes.  Dr. Male has made  her life work about the culture of tomatoes and her reasoning regarding sucker pruning is convincing regardless of any supposed benefit you may have imagined by your own gardening experience. Dr. Male has actually performed controlled experiments on the effects of sucker pruning, and the results negate my old belief and your current one regarding tomato production.

I will give you a smidgen of her theory as to the results of her experimentation:   The food production that occurs in tomato plants takes place in the leaves.  Suckering reduces the number and amount of leaf coverage available to the plant for food  (tomato) production, therefor, removing leaves handicaps the plant's capacity for tomato production.  If one wants to simply grow larger tomatoes, rather that  a greater amount of pounds of tomatoes, the way to accomplish that goal is to remove some of the blooms, rather than leaves, so that the nutrients produced in the leaves will result in larger tomatoes.  But tomato size is mostly limited by the genes of the particular cultivar, so there are basic limits on tomato size for each cultivar.

As far as tying the plant up off the ground, if you grow your plants in cages made from concrete reinforcing  6" mesh, there is no need for ever tying up tomato vines, simply push the growing branches back into the cages.

I heartily recommend Dr. Males book to you, 100 Heirloom Tomatoes For the American Garden, available at Amazon.com for $12.89.  Buy it, read it, you will love it. 
"A little learning is a dang'rous thing;
Drink deep, or quaff not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again" {Pope}

[matherfish]

Thanks, Johns. You had mentioned the tomato plants, so that is why I did. However, I only grow 4 or 5 plants a year so I do not tend to them as I once did.  I also have tomato cages. Thanks for the information. I may have little learning  , but I do try to learn from others constantly.

[bunny56lbc]

Thank You Johns for the information on the tomatoes . I used to prune all the tomatoes because that's what I was taught to do .
That's one less job I'll have to do 

bonnie