Author Topic: We got a thoughtful letter from a wise member today (Read 8619 times)

Jerry · « **on:** June 13, 2010, 04:26:45 PM »

He did say that he sees some nonsense and pettiness going on here, We do too at times, but it is hard to read all the posts. I am sure I have pulled a few dumb stunts too. I know of one for sure and i did apologies. Folks, we are all human, but we do need to be thoughtful and considerate.
Becuse of it some go elsewhere. In fact some come here because of similar problems on other sites

Sorry to preach, but we have such a fine bunch here, and we respect you all.

So bend over back wards to keep it gentle!

I don't know how we compare to other sites in this regard. Yes, close to 2000 members is a big site population!
That many people makes it difficult for them all to fit smoothly.
Sean and I are busy, and reading all the posts is impossible. Heck we are busy banning scammers daily!
Thanks for listening.

2vetts · « **Reply #1 on:** June 13, 2010, 04:42:48 PM »

i'll plead guilty to nonsense but thought that was not a problem in ''chit chat'' . by the way , on the archerytalk forum if one makes a post and goes to the site an hour later it is at least two pages back . i can't believe how little traffic there is on this forum . just an observation ,not trying to cause trouble .

Jonna · « **Reply #2 on:** June 13, 2010, 07:06:19 PM »

Well, I am less and less interested in posting here because of the petty snarking that is going on. I think that it is obvious that there are cliques that go out of their way to pick at other members trying to set them off. The osmocote thread is a prime example, and it was repeated verbatim on another forum. It's juvenile and it is petty and in this case it appears to have worked. I don't condone people responding to these underhanded attacks but I understand that it can be difficult not to when you are the target. I guess they were successful in this case since Joyce is now banned. It's a shame in all cases, one that there are people on here as petty and cowardly (yes, I think they are cowards) and underhanded as this. Second that some find it impossible not to respond, I am all for taking the high road in most cases or, as I am feeling right now, in just taking myself away since I find the whole thing disturbing.

Hard to believe that grown people can fight about something so petty as how often some brand of fertilizer is mentioned. The phrase 'get a life' comes to mind.

Esther · « **Reply #3 on:** June 13, 2010, 07:12:33 PM »

Again, we are all different and have differing opinions and personalities. What might seem petty and nonsensical to some might be important to another. And again, don't forget that what someone feels inside, might not show perfectly in the words chosen, so can easily be misunderstood by someone else. We sometimes attempt to interpret what another REALLY means, by what they have said, and can be totally wrong. Another thing comes into play, we are not standing face to face when we speak so maybe say things that wouldn't be said if we were standing an arm's length away.

There are groups of people here who form alliances and sometimes jump into the fray to defend or reinforce another of the same thinking. But that is not unusual when it comes to people having discussions. When one feels strongly on a topic, depending on their personality, they probably will strongly defend their position. That type of thing is what makes the world go 'round. When that smooth rotation hits a snag is when that normal discussion loses it's focus and takes a left hand turn to be come a personal affront.

It's hard enough following the topic when we are in the same room with others sometimes, let alone on a forum. Did you ever find yourself in the middle of a conversation with your spouse and realize you were having what seemed to be a nice conversation and then realize you were on totally different wave length?

One time family was here and someone was commenting on my Baby's Breath plant. It was full of tiny buds and flowers. My mother in law said, "Well that's simple enough, buy some spray and spray it." We all looked at her and said, "What are you talking about? Spray???" Uhhuh, she said, "Well if there's bugs all over it, just buy a can of bug spray and kill them."

Even if I don't always agree with everyone, I still say that Sean and Jerry do a wonderful job moderating this forum and I'm grateful for it. Many thanks to them for what they do. It's amazing when you think that 2000 people from all over the world come together with at least one similar interest----water (well, the stuff that grows in it and around it)---and are able to exchange information like we do.

Jerry · « **Reply #4 on:** June 13, 2010, 08:03:31 PM »

We do have a mission statement that clearly states profane name calling is not allowed! If you knew what was said you would be supportive of the decision. if you want to know PM and I will tell you. The Osmocate was mild.
We were accused of having a double standard. She was right since we overlooked so much that she posted. We no longer will allow it.
Jonna, it came down to this. Joyce or Sean and me. I see no choice.
We were ready to walk away. It just was not fun anymore.
I was getting dozens of emails and PMs. It was well beyond a small clique.
Laid awake a few nights too.

Esther · « **Reply #5 on:** June 13, 2010, 09:31:27 PM »

Thank you Jerry and Sean for your time and consideration. It must not be easy. My guess is that we don't know the half of what you guys go through behind the scenes.

Indiana Karen · « **Reply #6 on:** June 13, 2010, 09:37:26 PM »

The whole thing just stinks.

You should never have to lay awake worrying about this place. :'(

Thanks for all you do Jerry and Sean.

Karen

Jonna · « **Reply #7 on:** June 13, 2010, 09:51:14 PM »

Jerry, I understand that you and Sean have to do what you have to do, it's a tough job and it is your sandbox. I guess my main problem is with the baiting, it's like a bunch of kids picking on someone in the schoolyard and it's offensive. Bad words may be offensive to some but bad behavior is offensive to me. I know that there are significant differences of opinion between myself and others here but I don't get the constant innuendos and subtle attacks. It's possible I would now but I've pretty much disengaged at this point. I think the most obvious reason I don't get these responses is because I try very hard not to interject or respond to controversial topics. I thought a long time before speaking up about this.

It seems to me that as adults who share a common passion for ponds, fish and flowers, we could discuss those things with respect. I know you say that it is not a small group but that's perhaps in your mailbox, what appears here is a small group and in this public forum they appear as bullies. It should not matter what your religion is or isn't, what you consider family, where you live or who you vote for when all we need to do is talk about plants and fish and ponds. I guess this is a microcosm of the problems we see around the world where folks with only slightly differing opinions seem to find those differences insurmountable. It's sad.

Roark · « **Reply #8 on:** June 13, 2010, 09:55:31 PM »

Sadness. If there is a single word to describe where we have finally found ourselves, it would be this.

Koi boards are born, and die, based on the actions of the members and moderators. It is NOT POSSIBLE to list a modern day koi-board without thinking about the agonizing (and sometimes embarrasing!) history which created/destroyed it. American Ponders is no different. The same forces and dynamic apply. History will judge this board, and it's members, in the same manner it has judged every other board.

The thought that I'd like to leave you with is this: When you open your digital mouth... have something to say. When you address an "issue", make sure it really is, in fact, an "issue". The internet has an infinite memory. We, in contrast, are temporary. Google is a powerful reminder of our own delusional thinking. So think before you type. The best advice I ever heard was this: "Pretend your post will be read by every Ponder for the next 50 years. And pretend your *real* name, and address, and city/state/zipcode was attached to it." (If that isn't a humbling thought, I don't know what is!)

Parting shot: Egos are like that universal discharge oriface located squarely between the cheeks of your gluteus maximus: Everybody has one and they all stink. If you think you've just "won" a battle, you might want to look a little further. The audience is, in fact, watching, and they don't necessarily see it "your" way. The "audience" may consist of thousands, and many times they are a silent majority. So just because your personal cheering section may seem a little louder to you than the "other" side, you would do well to understand this doesn't mean much. By your words and actions, both real and virtual, will you be judged.

We are all human. We have the capacity to think, understand and (gasp!) forgive. I'm hoping the current sillyness here on AP is short-lived and self-correcting. If not, well.... this board will be proof that history repeats itself.

Roark

2vetts · « **Reply #9 on:** June 14, 2010, 04:34:01 AM »

happy to say i haven't a clue what's going on and i like it that way !!!!!!!!!!!

Jerry · « **Reply #10 on:** June 14, 2010, 07:15:41 AM »

All good comments. Nothing has been said that one could disagree with.

I got a bunch of PMs this morning that were supportive. They also said they were careful where they posted Lest the be attacked. There is no doubt they were intimidated.
Roark said it beautifully.

One observation:

If I was with someone and called them a jerk off and my grin was from ear to ear, he would laugh and call me something right back. maybe a dumb ass doofus! We then would both laugh!
In print however there is no grin or wink to be seen and it really sounds crude as well as just plain mean.The pen can be mightier than the sword!

If we had a bubble over our heads as in the cartoons and you could see what your friends think about you, we would have no friends. I said that here once before and I think it very true..I may be redundant here but the bottom line was this: it was me and Sean leaving or the difficult (as well as brilliant) member being booted. So there was no choice. Too quote Roark.."You must do what is best for the forum." I hope that is accurate.
This just wasn't fun anymore.

Oh yeah: here in "Chit Chat" where I spoke of the late great John Wooden. I told of a famous story that had to do with Bill Walton. I stuck it in because it was such a great parable Take a peek!

Esther · « **Reply #11 on:** June 14, 2010, 09:10:39 AM »

Thanks Jerry. I know it was hard.

Kittyzee · « **Reply #12 on:** June 14, 2010, 10:21:23 AM »

This is the first of hearing of this--my internet was down all yesterday due to storms and flooding. I am saddened also, but will abide by whatever you and Sean have decided, Jerry.

I pretty much feel as Jonna does, but kind of like Roark said: Opinions are like a&&holes, everybody has one. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, we are all human and we need to treat each other with respect. I just don't like bullies at all, no matter WHO you are.....

Kat · « **Reply #13 on:** June 14, 2010, 11:31:40 AM »

The Golden Rule (my Grandma has this on a plaque in her kitchen)
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

It is unfortunate that a certain group of people have decided that for whatever reasons to pick on other certain people. I've seen a lot of underhanded innuendos being posted & then whenever there are retaliation postings in turn it can get ugly. The word "bullies" (as someone else has posted) comes to mind & the childishness gets old real fast. All my life I've tried to live by the Golden Rule, & sometimes it works, sometimes not because not everyone is fair to those around them. I don't know how many of you have come close to death, but I applaud Joyce's fight for life & her surviving cancer. I watched my mother fight breast cancer when I was in my late teens, then it came back 10 years later. The cancer won the second time around. My mom became more outspoken because of her illness. I don't agree with every posting that was made before or after, but I do know this. Joyce has been very generous with her time, knowledge, & is eager to share whatever/whenever she can. I've met only a few other people in the ponding group that have been as generous when trading or just out of friendship.

Another quote comes to mind:
"What goes around comes around"

I don't envy or want a job of moderating a forum. I'd have many a sleepless night & so much stress that I'd be crazy. Hopefully all of us will act civil & keep ourselved moderated to make it easier on Jerry & Sean.

Jerry · « **Reply #14 on:** June 14, 2010, 01:02:02 PM »

Kat, your comments about Joyce are accurate. You left out beautiful. She has many who feel like you do. This made it a really tough decision.
All those superb attributes were not the reason for the ban.

We get letters and well over 90% are supportive. A few who questioned the decision as did I, said..."you do what you gotta do, and you must do what is best for the forum".
We labored the decision for over 2 years. A lot of headaches and lost sleep. just not worth it.
Sean and I were ready to "walk!"

Jerry · « **Reply #15 on:** June 14, 2010, 01:29:32 PM »

I am getting the HP award for the biggest jump for one persons use of ink cartridges!!

(kidding)

Sonny · « **Reply #16 on:** June 14, 2010, 04:38:31 PM »

Hearing of Joyce's banning has brought me back for one more post...

I can't imagine how a ponding forum, especially one that is devoted to water gardening, would want to ban someone who is so knowledgeable and helpful. Sure she has strong opinions on some matters but much of this board's intellectual property stems from people like her. I must admit that I don't know exactly what happened but I did do a search of her most recent posts and didn't find anything ban-worthy. My personal opinion is that this board isn't exactly clear on what it wants to be. Why little disputes are treated with so much drama is beyond me. A moderator of such a forum should expect these things and deal with them in a manner that diffuses tension not exacerbates it. Jerry, I am sorry you lose so much sleep and find yourself 'willing to walk' when things get dicey. Those kinds of statements come across as veiled threats to me and are a big reason why I stopped participating here. And Sean has so much to offer this forum; I sometimes wonder why he doesn't post more about lillies, breeding, hybridizing, and contributing to the overall advancement of the water-gardening community. That is why people come here to begin with after all. There is much potential here but the guys in charge seem to want a Utopia. That ain't going to happen and until ya'll realize that you're going to struggle I'm afraid.

Jerry · « **Reply #17 on:** June 14, 2010, 05:05:55 PM »

Nothing veiled at all , it's true. We both said it's not worth it Very clear. We pay the bills , we can walk. How simple can it get? We need to pay to be aggravated?
I certainly agree she is an amazing women. She also is a magnet for arguments. Not reasonale ones but vile name calling.
You didn't see it because we recycle it. We do have it!

The mission statement is very clear, read it. What don't you understand?
If you have a need to see the words I will be glad to send them to you!
If I spoke to you with those words you would be furious. Rightly so.
Sean does not post as much as he did because he has long, hard hours and it's just not fun anymore.
NO NOT utopia, just civility!!!!!

Before we get more comments like this I hope those who disagree read this post!

Sean · « **Reply #18 on:** June 14, 2010, 06:05:41 PM »

I have to honestly say that since I became a supervisor at the hospital, I am mentally drained when I get home, I have not even had time for my favorite hobby this year which is why even with my big titanium heater, I have no blooming lilies and my pond is full of string algae and floating clumpy algae. To then get multitudes of negative email from this very forum plus having to administer it, I have to tell you all, it's not fun anymore and I have a very bad taste in my mouth over it all.

We tried to keep Joyce but she got so paranoid thinking everyone was after her somehow when they really were not then she expected Jerry and I to ban others because she did not agree with them, well we had to do something. You see it wasn't just three or four people who had problems with her over the years, it was too many to mention and we had banned perfectly good members just to keep her here, well no more, there are equally knowledgeable people who are members here who now may start to come back out of the woodwork because they are safe knowing Joyce is not here to jump all over them.

I will also mention the final straw was personal emails to both Jerry and I that fortified the decision to let her go, not her posts on the forum. I will miss her for her generosity of knowledge and wonderful trades as well as the freebies she so often sent. I will not however miss having to constantly coddle her and assure her all is fine, when it really was but she was sure somebody was referring to her when it was obviously about someone else.

Sean

Jerry · « **Reply #19 on:** June 14, 2010, 06:12:09 PM »

Thank you!

Kittyzee · « **Reply #20 on:** June 14, 2010, 06:22:25 PM »

To both Sean and Jerry--I am grateful for the sacrifices you make on behalf of me and everyone else on AP. If it sounded like I was trying to second-guess you, I apologize for that.

I love being here and what I have learned here over the years from so many members is indescribable. People have asked me where I learned so much about caring for my fish and my plants, my gardens, my pets--I tell them 'on a website called American Ponders'. I want it to be fun for both of you again so that you can participate instead of being 'parents'. I'm sorry if this sounds hokey--it's just how I feel.

Sonny · « **Reply #21 on:** June 14, 2010, 06:35:25 PM »

I probably should have kept my mouth zipped since I left this place some time ago. Frankly, I don't participate much on the ponding forums any more. But Joyce was one of the most positive influences for me on these boards and I can't imagine things have come to this point.

I have some beautiful plants because of her generosity.

Happy ponding to you all

Pondly, Sonny (got that from Joyce

)

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #22 on:** June 14, 2010, 06:53:56 PM »

Hey, Jerry and Sean have done what had to be done to keep this forum going. Jerry and I have talked about what others didn't see. I would suggest that we, all of this forum, stop pointing fingers at others that supposedly caused what has happened and let's move on. There is more than one person in this forum that has knowledge. TMike and Sean are two in particular. And before fingers are pointed at me, it wasn't my fault. I was handling things fine without causing any problems or jumping on Joyce for anything. I just want this forum back to a peaceful existence. Let's stop fighting. Let Jerry and Sean run the board as they see fit. They are the best admin a board can have.

If you have never noticed my signature, do so. Happy ponding is what I mean.

reddad35 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 14, 2010, 07:18:19 PM »

Some have talked of the many different people that share this love for ponds. Some have said this should bring us together. I agree it should. If all 2000 members met at a giant pond, that we could all fit around, we would all be great for a bit. Soon people would start talking and forming groups of discussion. It is possible that when the day was over everyone would go home thinking they had a blast. They had a great time and they could not wait till the next time this group got together. The next time we got together you would look for the people that made you the most comfortable the last time and migrate towards them. If one of them was generous, knowledgeable and nice everytime you talked to them you would desire to be with them again. If after a few visits you noticed this same person was fighting, name calling and talking down to other members of the group would you say something? Risking losing that friend?
From sept of 2009 till april of 2010 there were no fights that resulted in post removal. Since that date I have noticed 3. All with a common thread and none were the common threads fault. As Jerry said more than one person was removed because this person did not like them. The great value wears thin when the same individual is involved in every problem.
Removal from a forum does not mean you are not allowed to be friends with this person. I hope you all go back and try to determine what problems this site has had and do the math on the common thread. This common thread forced people to take sides or leave or stop posting for fear of a wrath. It also made others feel they should speak out and defend. Name another more polarizing person in this forum or another forum. If you can then remember what happened to that person. Are they still there? Did they leave by choice. Were they forced to leave? If they were your friend did you notice they were out of line more than most? Did you talk to them about it? Or did you also blame others?

matherfish · « **Reply #24 on:** June 14, 2010, 09:07:55 PM »

Quote

I think that it is obvious that there are cliques that go out of their way to pick at other members trying to set them off. The osmocote thread is a prime example, and it was repeated verbatim on another forum. It's juvenile and it is petty and in this case it appears to have worked.

Jonna, you are obviously pointing a finger at me and without any justification on this behalf. The osmocote thread never tried to set anyone off. It was simply what I said it was. People could post that they agreed or disagreed. No lectures needed. Your reference to me being petty and juvenile shows the attitude that has caused problems here. My posts were not demeaning, nor name calling. Since the same posters were on both forums, the post was on both forums. And the demeaning is occuring by the same people there. Why do you not think I am allowed to express my opinion? That is why many did not want to post on the forum. If you disagree with certain ones, you get lamblasted. Sorry, but I appreciate Sean and Jerry for sticking to higher standards, and I think the forum will be stronger because of it.

HOWELL · « **Reply #25 on:** June 14, 2010, 10:21:51 PM »

I think this is all BS.
And instead of moving forward we move some steps back, even though I think I am the youngest one here I also think I am the most tolerable here. I love everyone here, I have become a good friend of everyone here. I do not care if they fertilize with osmocote or with pondtabs, I do not care if they believe in jesus or not, I do not care if they have lillies or lotus, I do not care if they have rocked bottom ponds or not, What I do care is to read and get as much information and make friends, or even know someone that sells good sized plants for less money and so and so.
I have been pretty pleased and I have seen people getting into fights for something not worth it. Joyce conciders me a friend and I could say that she is a really good friend of mine too.
I was so happy when she came back to post in here, and I will be so happy to say that maybe it was me the one that brought her back.
Remember people we are in the 21th century not the 3rd nor the 5th.
We need to learn that there are other people out there with different thoughts in some matters and they may or may not agreed with us.
So that is just a matter of time for us to learn that.

Peace friends and chill...

Pondering · « **Reply #26 on:** June 15, 2010, 06:42:04 AM »

Are you sure your only 22?

HOWELL · « **Reply #27 on:** June 15, 2010, 07:33:34 AM »

I am 22, why do you say that?
Pondering why are you laughing?....

Esther · « **Reply #28 on:** June 15, 2010, 07:50:37 AM »

I think P was hinting that you are showing more wisdom than a typical person of 22.

Different personalities make some differences. I don't mind differing opinions. I mind that opinion becoming personal.

Pondering · « **Reply #29 on:** June 15, 2010, 07:51:17 AM »

because you sound much wiser and older

Like Esther said