Author Topic: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.  (Read 2398 times)

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Offline Mike S.

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New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« on: July 14, 2011, 08:52:03 AM »
Even with the bad weather, lots of rain and very little sun, some of my new arivals are blooming.

Here is Arc-en-ciel. I've been told that many like this one for it's pads, but I think the bloom is pretty nice, as well.



Below, King of Siam. Not actually it's first bloom, but still from a rather small plant that is growing rapidly. I'll get another pic when it opens fully and shows it's center.



Last of the new one's for now, Pink Ribbon.



Like the Arc-en-ciel, this bud was on the plant when it got here. It seems to me that buds shipped on hardy waterlilies have a high survival rate. The buds on tropicals do not seem to do quite as well. At least, thats been my experience, so far.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline frogman3

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2011, 12:10:16 PM »
Mike, excuse me if someone has already asked this of you before but what is your planting media, it looks gray in color.

Offline Mike S.

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2011, 02:21:17 PM »
I think what you are seeing, at least in the Arc-en-ciel picture is the builder's sand I top the pots with. I still do that, but I'm no longer convinced its actually required. More out of habit, than anything else.

Since my yard dirt is more sand than anything else, I've been mixing it with different bagged topsoils. Different ones, because I was trying to find one good brand. Looks to me like most are not really soil, or what I'd call "dirt," anyway, but mostly poorly composted mulch. About half of it will float to the top when submerged. What I had been hoping for would probably be described as garden loam.

Then I found the cheapest stuff, that looked more like "dirt" to me at Walmart. It is sold as being "good for filling holes and leveling low areas." The name of it is Earthgrow. About $1.50 a 40lb bag. I like it, nothing floats to the top, no chemistry added I might not want, and is "dirt cheap!" In the pot, it feels kind of heavy, as if it had some clay in it, but I wouldn't bet on it being there. It just has the consistancy I like. This is what I now use, right out of the bag, nothing added.

I've experimented around with adding clay, and other things, but for me, this out-of-the-bag stuff works just fine, since I'm using AgSafe tabs and Red Dynomite prills. I'll be trying AgSafe's prills as soon as it gets here. It has been shown many times, that with good fertilizer, you can easily grow waterlilies in pure sand.

One of Perry Slocum's sons told me at a siminar one time, that "If it will grow grass, it will grow waterlilies." He was talking at the time about mixing Florida yard dirt, mostly sand, with any bagged topsoil. He went by color, looking for a mid-scale gray.

Looks like I might have over-explained something again!

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline perplexed ponder

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2011, 04:10:19 PM »
Mike, what are prills?
Kathy

Offline Mike S.

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2011, 06:11:36 PM »
Prills, little hard pellets of fertilizer. To be more specific, I'm talking about Red Dynamite Plant Food, which is a brand name for Nutricote Type 270, 13x13x13 with Micronutrients. What is different about this stuff is that it is tempureature released, rather than simply a water soluable one like other granular ones on the market.

The "270" means is will supply the fertilizer for 270 days, when those days produce target temps in the pot. There is also a "360" version which means you can probably go for 2 years without addtional fertilizer, when your growing season is short enough for the lower temps to shut down the release.

Before I manage to "mispeak myself," There is an article on this subject written by Steve Stroupe, Volume 4, Number 3, WGI Journal, on-line, Aug, 2009. It's available on the IWGS web site, and pretty sure also on the Water Gardener's International web site.

It does take about 30 days for the Red Dynamite to kick in, so I also use a pond tab to feed the plant until then.

The bottle says to use 3/4 of a cap full for each gallon of soil. I've found that works fairly well for my hardies, but the tropicals seem to need more. Now, I'm using  a full cap full for the tropicals and might go higher in the future.

Just so there's no confusion, Osmocote and Nutricote are not the same thing.

Mike S.
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Offline magoo

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2011, 07:16:57 PM »
We need more discussion about the topic of how other people culture their lilies. Information like this helps me improve how I grow my lilies. Do you use big pots, little pots, with or with out holes?  Is Red Dynamite specifically formulated for aquatic plants?  I've been using builders sand over peat in small pots with holes for several years. Sand and peat are easy. Lilies clean up for shipping easily and repotting too. I used more peat this year , the bottom third of the pots.  15-15-15 Osmacote cause that all I could find locally. Used PondTabs the last few years. If Red Diamond will extend the time between fertilizing with out diminished flower production, great.    Arc-en-Ciel is a cool lily. The only hardy in my main pond so far.

Thanks for sharing.
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Offline Desertponder

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2011, 10:27:44 AM »
Quote
Then I found the cheapest stuff, that looked more like "dirt" to me at Walmart. It is sold as being "good for filling holes and leveling low areas." The name of it is Earthgrow. About $1.50 a 40lb bag. I like it, nothing floats to the top, no chemistry added I might not want, and is "dirt cheap!" In the pot, it feels kind of heavy, as if it had some clay in it, but I wouldn't bet on it being there. It just has the consistancy I like. This is what I now use, right out of the bag, nothing added.

That is exactly what I have used for a number of years now. Its just dirt and appears to have a little bit of sand in it. Home Depot carries it as well.:)
Shanna
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Offline Mike S.

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2011, 01:13:12 PM »
Just got off the phone with Steve Tiger (?I think that's what he said?) of AgSafe. Their new Pond Pearls is what I'll be trying next. Sounds better than the Nutricote (Red Devil) that I've been using and do like. The Pond Pearls might be even better.

Red Devil is sold as a terrestrial fertilizer, even though it is a temp released product that has the 13-13-13 mix, same as my pond tabs. But the new one Pond Pearls, is time released, with pellets that release over time when in water, and others that are temperature released. There is also some in the mix that release right away, so there's no need to use the "Pearls" and tabs, like you do with the Red Devil.

Should be able to do a nice, once a year dose with this stuff. I will try it for the rest of year and if I like it, I'll likely be selling it when I do open for biz.

Did I say something about "no secrets?" I believe I did. Here is where I found it: http://gardenlink.com/agsafepondpearlsbag10.aspx

Hope that link is OK to post! If not, I imagine it will be gone soon. (Hopefully, not me along with it!)

Mike S.
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Offline frogman3

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2011, 11:23:13 AM »
I find pond fertilizer options interesting also. I always believed that for maximizing blooms on your lilies you should use a fertilizer with a high content of phosphate which is why I use Jobes tomato spikes. 6-18-6. How do others feel about the importance of the formulation of the fertilizer? The pond pearls have a slow release 15-10-10 which is highest in Nitrogen which I would imagine would most encourage pad development. Any opinions if it makes any difference?
Is the temperature activated slow release feature the most important, especially to those ponders who have scores of pots to tend too, so they only have to fertilize once per year?

Offline Mike S.

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2011, 12:49:19 PM »
I don’t know enough about it yet to say which formula works best for waterlilies, but most fertilizers developed specifically for them seem to fall in a fairly narrow range. I think that the different results people get is probably due to differences in their planting soils. As far as I know, Pond Pearls is the only one of its type that was actually designed for aquatic plants. I'd say that its once a year application is its main selling point and that should be a very good one.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline miguynmkoi

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2011, 05:37:07 PM »
Tomato spikes give me the most blooms but I need to reapply very often.  One time application of Osmocote promotes blooms too but not as many as the spikes.

Offline Mike S.

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2011, 08:29:36 AM »
Got the Pond Pearls in.

As I said earlier, when I placed the order, the on-line info was not available. It is there now. What is says on-line differs a little from the print material that came with the fertilizer, not by much. On-line says it is 15-10-10, the printed version call is 15-10-12. I'm sure that will be cleared up over time.

Also, the on-line says it can be used "for the enitre growing season (6-9 months)", where the print material says, "5-6 Month Continuous Feeding." Again, not quite the same, but not too different. Any any event, the local weather conditons will vary enough to cover that difference due to the temp release components.

From the on-line, printed, and a telephone conversation, the differences between Nutricote, sold as Red Devil plant food, is that the Nutricote is pretty much all temperature released. With either, a temperature drop such as the end of the growing season, will cause the fertilzers to stop releasing the nutrients. And that is a helpful feature.

But Nutricote does take time, almost a month, before it starts releasing nutrients. Because of this, you need to add something else, such as a conventional pond tab, when planting. Pond Pearls is made up of many different sizes and colors of prills. These different prills have different binders and coatings. Some are primarily temperature release, others are mainly water released, and it seems that the different coatings mean some will release at different times throughout the growing season.  Enough of it will release right away, so you do not need to use a pond tab during the initial planting. Here is a quote from the on-line material that was echoed in the phone call:

"Designed to promote strong green growth and rooting during the initial months of feeding; followed by, the remaining months of long-lasting blooms."

It goes on to say, "Repeat feeding application with AgSafe Aquatic-Tabs® or Aquatic-Spikes™ next season." But it seems to me that "next season," you will likely be re-potting anyway, possibly in a larger pot, you should be able to use the Pond Pearls again.

So, you need a tab to start a plant with Nutricote (Red Devil,) and from the print material, "After Pond-Pearls Application: Promote quick blooming using Aquatic-Tabs." This is not mentioned in the on-line material. But from the phone call, you should be able to get pretty good results over a growing season, with the Pond Pearls alone.

I don't know. But I do have plenty of the Pond Pearls and Nutricote on hand, along with my pond tabs, and plenty of plants to be planted. So, I'll have to keep some notes and decide just which way I'm going to go. I'll post what happens, either way. But this will take a while.

It was asked somewhere above about the size pots I'm using. I don't think I covered that!

Since I tend to experiment as I go, this year I'm generally starting with two of each variety. Especailly with tropicals, I plant one in a 1 gallon squat pot. This allows most all of them to reach a pretty good size, sometimes too big for the majority of my ponds which are 4X8 feet, about 2 feet deep. Also, it seems to me that the one gallon pot is probably the most common size used in ponds across the country.

The second plant is planted in a much smaller pot, some in 4 inch Lerio pots, some in 18 oz plastic cups, and some in 8 or nine ounce "Dixie Cups," ala the "Sean's Bonsai Method." (Sean, you really should trademark that!" These are planted this way for two reasons. One is to promote tuber production for next year's crop, the other reason is that plants grown in them grow large enough for fairly good sized pads, but not usually quite a large as the gallon pot plants, and they will still produce blooms, again not usually quite the size of the larger potted plants. Plants from the cups are a nice size for shipping as bare-root waterlilies. And you can grow a surprising number of them in smaller grow-out ponds.

I'm currently trying out small, rectangular food storage containers for the new hardy waterlilies. I hope to apply the same "Bonsai" techinques to produce a larger number of them in a small space, while the shape of the container will allow for good horizontal rhizome growth. And so far, so good!

In the past, I used 8 oz. desert cups for starting "plantlets," 1 gallon squat pots for initial grow-outs of those plants, and later, I planted many in Lerio's 2 1/2 gallon pots and many others in the Lerio 10 gallon pots. The latter produced some impressive waterlilies. My original mentor kept at least one each of his most common varieties in several 27 foot diameter ponds, each potten in a large pot made from half of a 50 gallon plastic drum. These made for some of the largest "non-Victoria" waterlilies I've ever seen. He had some slots cut in the top of those large pots for nylon webbing, as he used a digging attachment on his tractor to lift them in and out the pond for maintanance. (I won't be going that far!"

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline frogman3

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2011, 06:11:21 PM »
Great info, Mike and nice of you to share it. I have many of my hardies planted in 16" X 9" deep pots giving them plenty of room to grow and only needing to divide every two years.

Offline Mike S.

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2011, 08:54:28 PM »
If I were growing waterlilies for my own collection, I'd be planting more like you are.  In fact, I'd not plant any waterlilies in the one gallon squat pots, I'd be looking for something at least twice as wide as it is deep and. 2 1/2 to 3 gallons would be the smallest container I'd use. Of course, my little 4x8 patio ponds would be way too small.

Most every thing I'm doing now is geared towards producing quantities of waterlilies in a small space and getting them quickly up to a reasonable size and very healthy,for sales.

Different methods for different goals.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline Zoe

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2011, 05:30:27 AM »
I am glad to see your last post. I am always trying to "figure out" exactly what the best way to get the most blooms. I recently potted up to 5 gallon pots that I found online.  They are 15" by 8".  But... I don't have as many lilies as you do and it is just a hobby for me.  I also switched to the way Kat fertilizes her lilies and I can see a difference both with the lilies and my back.  With hardies, I agree with Frogman3, I use the 16" by 7" and put three or more in the same pot. I did not repot this spring but will next year. I was going to use oil pans from Walmart but decided to return them. They looked to shallow.  It can be a great deal of work and I can't imagine trying to keep up with trying to grow and sell water lilies.  Please keep posting your progress using the new fertilizer.  Have you ever used Landon's granular fertilizer?

Cindy 

Offline frogman3

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2011, 07:26:36 AM »
Totally understand Mike, different goals require different growing methods. I always enjoy your insightful post.
Several years ago when I built several new ponds which were deeper than any I had prior to that, I was told most Hardy Lilies would do fine growing in pots with the top of the pots 3 feet deep. My experience has been they did ok but not compared to the pots I raised in the water column by one foot. The difference has been quite dramatic double the bloom production on the same varieties. Another that struggled to produce one bloom at a time for two years now produces three to four at once. Next year I plan on raising all to that depth. Live and learn as they say. 

Offline Desertponder

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2011, 09:17:59 AM »
The slow release fertilizers such as Osmocote works well for some but not others. It depends on your water temps. Its my understanding that the slow release needs consistent warm water temps or it won't release well. In the fall of 2009 I repotted my lilies and used Osmocote. I also made my own little osmocote fertilizer balls if I needed more in the spring and summer. I had one of the worst lily seasons ever and around the end of july, first part of august I hit all the pots with tomato spikes and started getting some blooms. My water temps do not get as warm as many folks do that live in the south or eastern part of the country and our night temps drop nearly 30+ degrees from daytime so I don't get the consistent warm temps. I'm sticking with the tomato spikes.:)
Shanna
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Offline Mike S.

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 11:12:14 AM »
Exactly why I say that often, local advise is best. Different climates, water, soil types, all make a difference. Another thing I used to use as a "sig file" for all my post was, "There is No one True way."

Still true today.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline Zoe

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 01:30:22 PM »
I agee.  I have learned a great deal from our southern water gardeners.  I think I asked if you ever tried Landon's granular fertilizer? 

Offline Mike S.

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Re: New blooms, mostly from recent arivals.
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 07:43:32 PM »
I'm sorry, I forgot to answer that one.

No, the only granular, if you want to call them that, that I personally have tried is the Red Devil for plants and will begin using the AgSafe Pond Pearls on Monday. And I will post whatever I find out from that.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

 

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