Author Topic: ***WARNING*** on planting media  (Read 3945 times)

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Offline SueSTx

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***WARNING*** on planting media
« on: July 21, 2011, 10:26:55 AM »
I'm up to my elbows in stinky potting redos.  From now on only kitty litter will go into my pond.

Stay tuned for the rest of the story   {:-P;;
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 11:43:21 AM by SueSTx »

Offline SueSTx

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2011, 11:38:58 AM »
When I went out at 6:30 this morning to check the air pump in the unfiltered tanks, I found gasping fish.  The pump was working.  I did about a 10% water change.  The water is much warmer than usual with all our hot weather.  I pulled a couple of pots to check for rotting spent blooms and Hubby could smell the mess 10 foot away.  This is the tank I have had the most trouble with all summer.

We drove 30 miles each way to pick up kitty litter.  In March when I divided and repotted, I used 1/2 bagged "soil" and topped with kitty litter and rocks.  I have used compost and manure both in the past with no problems.  The bagged "soil" did have some shredded wood, but I wasn't worried.  Apparently I should have been.

On the way home Hubby said, "Remember, you said that the next time you repotted you were only gonna put two plants per pot."  Being he is helping, that is what I'm doing.  I have been able to save most of the buds by carefully selection each tuber.

It is 97* at 1:30 and I burnt my leg when I leaned against the tank to straighten pads so I will wait until later this evening to do another tank.  I guess I'll pull them all and redo them.  Maybe I won't have to divide them next spring and can wait until fall 2012...(yeah right).

It seems that the level of stink is directly related to the size of the planting in the pot.  So I really don't know the cause.  BUT from now on, only kitty litter will go into my pots.

After repotting all the lilies in one tank, you can already tell the difference in how the water looks and feels.  I hope this fixes my problem with the fish.

So much for mass planting and multiple blooms  :'(
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 11:42:43 AM by SueSTx »

Offline Zoe

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 12:48:21 PM »
I am curious what others think. I am glad you started this thread. 

Take care of yourself!

Offline Vickie

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 01:00:18 PM »
I am sorry you have had a problem. I use yard dirt.

Offline SueSTx

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2011, 01:10:41 PM »
We don't have dirt in our yards...seriously about 1" topsoil and then caliche mixed with very poor dirt.  If you plant a tree or shrub in most places, it just sets there like it was in a pot.  That is why I do raised beds or pots. 

When we planted grass about 20 years ago we hauled in loads of compost to till in.  The grass is beginning to look very tired...I think all the compost is used up.

The neighbors had someone come in to dig a hole for an inground prefab swimming pool.  They had native grass.  When they started digging, they couldn't believe anything would grow in "that".  I doubt if they will ever get grass to grow around the pool without bringing in loads and loads of topsoil.  It is a good thing that they left the "pool" about a foot or so above ground.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 01:23:18 PM by SueSTx »

Offline Mike S.

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 01:32:21 PM »
I think what you are going to find is that the type of growing media, from "yard dirt," to a commercial waterlily potting mix is really not all that important given the excellent fertilizers now available.

The real culprit in the formation of what is probably hydrogen sulfide inside the pot. This is due to not only whatever organics are in the soil, but also from the roots of the plant that have reached the bottom of the pont and died in a very much anaerobic environment. Did the smell from the pot remind you of rotten eggs? That would be hydrogen sulfide and it is quite toxic to fish.

In an article in the WGI Online Journal, Vol. 1, Number 3, August 2006, Rich Sacher wrote an article on poting and fetilizing waterlilies. To avoid the problem of a "dead space" in the bottom of the pot, he advocates cutting slits in the sides of the pot, right near the bottom, with a knife.

Yes, roots will eventually sneak out thru these slits, but that really is not a problem. Fish might eat them, but they'll just grow more. I've yet to see any evidence of fertilizer leaching out of those slits, as my unfiltered ponds tend to be quite clear. I just put a layer of dirt in the pot and make sure it comes up over the top of the slits, and then add my granular fertilizer inside that "dirt ring." The slits are only about 3/4 of an inch up the side of the pot, the width of the knife I cut them with.

The slits do allow for some gas exchange, theoretically keeping the soil in the pot from going completely anaerobic. I have been following Mr. Sacher's advice this year and so far, it all seems to work just like he says. My water still stays clear and I've seen no gas build up in the pots with the slits, unlike what I find in the smaller plastic cups I'm using on some plants.

Those cups, so far mostly 18oz ones, all seem to to have the soil in them kind of "dome up" after the plant has been growing a while. If I bounce the cup off the bottom of the pond, a lot of tiny bubble come out of the dirt, and it is a little stinky. In the future, I'll be putting a couple of small knife slits near the bottom of these, as well.

I also remember in the past when repotting plants in everything from one gallon to ten gallon pots, when it came time to repot, the oder sometimes got overpowering. That is, except in the pots that came with holes in them. Tried lining some of those with plastic bags. It worked, and they were smelly when repoting. Others, I used old landscape cloth to keep the soil from coming out the rather large, round holes. These grew just as well as the others, but never developed that smell.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline Tadpole

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2011, 02:07:28 PM »
Excellent advice, Mike.

Offline SueSTx

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2011, 04:29:37 PM »
I think I will drill a few holes in each dishpan and see if that prevents it from happening again.

I have always planted my tropicals in pots with holes.

Offline Sean

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2011, 05:37:19 PM »
Holes in pots make s a huge difference but if you are trying to just plant waterlilies without soil go with cheap play sand and fertilizer.

Cheers,
Sean
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Offline PondmaninAL

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2011, 07:12:37 PM »
I only use regular nursery pots with holes. One reason is that I happen to find someone who bought an old nursery and was converting it back to a home. There were all sizes of pots from 6" to large tree pots. I do use a soil mixture in my plants and the holes allow water circulation through the roots.
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Offline Vickie

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2011, 07:13:59 PM »
All my pots do have holes in them. So that is why I guess I don't have this problem.

Offline SueSTx

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2011, 08:01:39 PM »
   o(:-)   @O@  OH...I had a plesant surprise also...Southern Charm had it's first bloom.  I really like it

Offline CoolShades

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2011, 04:47:06 AM »
Anaerobic decay is always special. In South Florida there is a lot of sulfur so even when water sprinklers are on you smell H2S.  To me its bad when you don't smell it in Florida, because it means you are getting to lethal limits.  With that said one way I eliminated this issue is by weekly spiking of the pots (take a tie spike and just go to the bottom of pot multiple times in different areas.  Hey I was in the pond anyway de-leafing/budding.  Note it also makes fertilizing easier too. Since then I have not had a malordorous pot up in PA.  As far as planting media I like to use a heavy clay since it supports fertilizer better, those technically inclined clays have a lot of zeolites that improves  essential metal uptake by the plants.  I will have to scan in an atrticle I read about this years ago that was in an industrial trade mag.

Offline magoo

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2011, 05:29:42 AM »
With hints from Sean and Craig Presnell, I use small pots with holes. Waterlily pad to cover holes, 1/3 peat in the bottom of the pot, then 2/3 Play  School sand. Clean, easy and relatively cheap. I used Oz 15-15-15 prills and last years pondtabs this year. My waterlilies do best when the roots get into the muck at the bottom of the ponds. After several days in the ponds the sand 'sets up' and becomes stable in the pits the first few days the sand will pour out of the post it the pot is tipped over.  Sand and peat are easy to pot, easy to repot and easy to clean up. I use this method for potting tropical lilies. I repotted 4 of my 5 hardies using this method a couple of weeks ago so I'll see how hardies do using this method. 
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Offline tweetybaby2005

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2011, 05:53:05 AM »
Oh joy about the odor.   {:-P;;  I think pots with holes are easier for gas exchange so foul odor is kept to a minimum.  All my waterlilies are in solid bowls with pea gravel, no holes.  They did smell when I divided them this Spring.  Other plants I reuse the nursery pots with holes then put river rocks to hold the plants in so they are OK.

I haven't tried kitty litter since they are quite dusty and will cloud the water.  River rocks seem to work for me for now.

Sue - hope you can get it all done without swooning over either due to heat or odor.  Take cool breaks frequently.

Kuan

Offline Mike S.

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2011, 11:01:17 AM »
For those using kitty litter or thinking about it as a planting soil or additive, the best form is probably  the ablsolute cheapest. I'd avoid any that contains any kind of additive for "oder control," or anything else for that matter.

Most cheap kittly litters are usually a reasonably pure form of either calcium or sodium bentonite. Some do contain zeolites, and that would be a welcome ingredient.

Just try to avoid any of the perfumed varieties. I'd definately pre-wt the clay before potting with it, as some of the bentonite versions can do quite a bit of swelling when it absorbs water.

I have a friend in S. Africa, a Koi breeder, who also sells or once sold a brand of clay as kittly litter under the name of "Katch-It." A little S. African humor, I guess.

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Offline miguynmkoi

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2011, 04:51:51 PM »
I like this!  I've learned something to take the chore of everyone whining about the smell I make when I repot lilies!!!  :o :D  Kitty litter, clean and easy!  I will start this next year!

Offline SueSTx

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 07:25:12 PM »
 :D  I'm giving sand a thought   8)

The more I mess with the pots and tanks the more I think that this heat is at least 51% of my problem.  Even after doing a 25% water change, the water is nearly too hot for a summer time bath.

 :-\  I did a google and it looks like holes verses no holes is about a 50/50 split.

I vacummed the filtered tank this afternoon and the smell was   >:( >:(  .  Looks like I'll be repotting again tomorrow.

Offline Mike S.

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 07:36:40 PM »
Just because there seems to be a bit of confusion on the matter, let me say again, it isn't so much the media as it is the holes in the pots. They don't have to be large at all. In thin plastics, a knife slit will do.

Some that plant in pure, local clays find that the clay can hold the fertilizer all too well, making it hard for the plant to get it. A mix often works best, with the clay providing some structural integrity to the soil.

But with good fertilizers, even pure "play sand" can grow waterlilies.

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline Holldoll

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 07:42:23 PM »
I used kitty litter once and it made a HUGE mess in the pond because I didn't prewet it.  The pond was cloudy white for weeks. 

Offline frogman3

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 09:11:29 PM »
Those wanting kitty litter you can find it at Walmart called "special kitty" a no additive clay litter as Mike stipulated, cost is cheap 2.60 for a 25 lb bag.

Offline ThornyGardener

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2011, 09:32:17 PM »
Holes in pots make s a huge difference

A "huge difference" in what way? Just in preventing gas odor? I understand the danger to fish of methane released in the water and take precautions during my annual repotting, but are you saying it is harmful to the lilies? I've always thought they thrived in stinky anaerobic muck. When I switched from plastic mesh pots with clay litter/"aquatic media" to solid plastic pots with composted manure, my lilies performed exponentially better. Sure, it smells to high heaven when I lift out and repot in the fall or spring but that's a small issue compared to the improved blooming.

Offline Mike S.

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2011, 10:11:28 PM »
For me, the plants just seemed to grow better. What they grow in "in the wild," can be pretty much a mucky mess, but I dont' think (and this is just an opinion, nothing more,) that the muck in the wild is as anaerobic as what can happen in a relatively small, impermiable container.

I suppose a lot of it is subjective. But when I see the results that those who publish their thoughts on growing waterlilies, I tend think they are on to something.

I don't know if the presence of methane in the pot affects the plant itself. I am under the impression that most of its respiration takes place through the pads. (Could be wrong.) But when roots start rotting in the pot, it cannot be good for the plant.

Since I've seen a definate difference in the roots, and the difference in the "pot oder," I do think the holes DO make a difference, at least, enough of a difference for me to continue using that method.

But when some one does it differently and it works for them, I'll not argue with success.   :)

Mike S.
Spring Hill, FL

Offline SueSTx

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2011, 10:56:40 PM »
Actually in my case, the issue isn't about the plants but the goldies.

By looking at the lilies, they obviously couldn't be happier.  While vacuuming out the tank with a pump and filter there were areas where some kitty litter was on the bottom, occasionally you could smell the gas.  Obviously it isn't contained in the pots.  The fish aren't anything special but I simply can't subject them to a gas chamber.  Hopefully by repotting, the weather will cool off before we have this issue again.

I have never had this "gas" smell in the pots when repotting.  They usually just smell "fishy".  The water in the unfiltered/pumped tanks has gradually gotten worse in appearance as it heats up.  We have had unusually hot weather and there seems to be no end to it.

I do not test my water.  It isn't that big a deal to me, but when the fish are in obvious distress, I have to do all I know to fix it.

Offline Zoe

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2011, 05:04:13 AM »
Sue

Do you plan on replanting in sand after you replanted in kitty litter?  Like today? 

Offline greenthumbnails

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2011, 05:58:18 AM »
I enjoyed reading the discussion in this thread.  :)
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Offline SueSTx

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2011, 06:21:14 AM »
No...kitty litter will do for this time.  It has worked for me in the past with no "gasy" problems.  If I continue to see an issue then I might try sand the next time I repot.

I have done water changes in all the tanks and the fish are showing signs of spawning this morning.  I haven't seen any of that for quite some time.

The interesting thing about all this is we have two tanks at the farm with goldies...no plants...in full sun.  The cattle were moved out about a month or more ago.  The water is on a float system that is turned off.  I feed these fish each monring about 7:00.  They show no signs of gasping, so I have to think that it isn't a problem with the water temps or the lack of water movement.  I have added air pumps to the tanks here at the house where the problem is.

For most part in the past, the water in the still tanks has always been clear enough to see the crud on the bottom.  I'd vacumm regularly and do water changes.  This summer the water has never cleared up.  It is not green but a brown tinge.  I realize the fish are getting bigger and I do try to remove as many of the fry as possible.  The fact is that the water has a "thick" appearance some afternoons.  It "feels" different than normal.  We are having an exceptionally hot summer...already 28 days of 100* or better and summer is only 1/2 over. 

I have to believe that the main problem is the "dirt" I used in combination with the heat.  In the past I have used both compost and manure in the bottoms of my pots and I have never experienced this particular smell in the pots.  I have had fish gasping before and a 25% water change would fix the problem.  This summer it hasn't helped so I felt that repotting was my only choice.

I divided in March this year so this "dirt" has had four months already to go bad.  I can't help but feel that it is a combination of all things this year.  The heat being the biggest factor IMHO   :-\

Offline Zoe

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2011, 06:40:42 AM »
I uderstand about the heat. It has been really hot here and also very humid.  I also have air stones in addition to my pump on both ponds here.  What I have noticed this week is that there is a layer of green crud that floats to the top in the afternoon.  I keep the bottom of the ponds clean by using the pond vac.  I recently potted up my lilies in one of the ponds and did not have any major odor problems.  I have used the aquatic soil and litter type products for about three years now and it has helped with odor.  It is trial and error and what works for one may not work for another.  But I do know this that since I switched  from using dirt that my ponds don't have major problems.  I know how you feel about your fish.  We feel the same way.

Cindy

Offline SueSTx

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2011, 09:44:42 AM »
I don't know how I missed the fact that there was so much organic matter in this bagged "dirt" I used  {nono}  or didn't think it would NOT be a problem in March when I divided my lilies.  When I pulled the ArcEnCeil pots, the smell was the worse of all.  About all that was remaining in the bottom of the pot was shredded bark.   {-)  I will stay with what has always worked for me in the past...kitty litter...unless there is another problem before this HOT summer is over   :D  then I will try the sand.  Maybe do one half pots in sand and the other in kitty litter to test under like conditions.

This is what our yard "dirt" looks like.  We do have about an inch of fine silt like dirt over the top.



Here is a pic of my   :hug: HAPPY plants before dividing and after.





I just couldn't bring myself to "mess" with this pot yet.



I have redone 15 dishpans and 3 ice cream buckets so far.  I have 3 more dishpans and about 9 more buckets to go.


Offline Zoe

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Re: ***WARNING*** on planting media
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2011, 10:33:04 AM »

The water quality looks better Sue!  A job well done.

 

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