Author Topic: The experiment begins! And now the conclusion.. Drum roll please (Read 22480 times)

andrew davis · « **Reply #90 on:** February 07, 2007, 06:43:44 PM »

>>So just what are yours? Unprofessional to besmirch others and then keep yours secret

False statement, 'besmirch others' Four years BA hons degree at what is now known as the University of Central England. Stretches of management and marketing training. Thirty years various business consultancy employment.

I was asked, who had I worked with, not, what are my credentials

As you are not in any capacity that is of any interest to me, you will appreciate I certainly would not be interested in disclosing personal information other than what is appropriate to discussing water gardening on a public message board.

I would have no problem sending my resume to Paula Biles of the iwgs, should she think it appropriate. I did a couple of articles for her when she was in an editorial capacity

>>what is it specific to hardy lilies that make them more of a challenge

Fewer interesting seed parent varieties, lower fertility rates, less seed pods produced. Other folk may have other experience, it is a broad church

>>I have to say that my personal observations and business data from about every wholesaler out there says you are misjudging the market

Can't recall mentioning any assessment of the market, I made reference to what on the market is of interest to me and my location

>>I noticed you panned Joyce's credentials with out producing a single bit of corroboration

I don't know what her credentials or qualifications are. Unqualified typist at a lawn and sod company? As far as I am aware it is slim to none. No other tangible evidence. It did remind me you really, really do need to double check credentials, was my opinion.

Regards, andy
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

Craig · « **Reply #91 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:20:49 PM »

<<Can't recall mentioning any assessment of the market>>

Please allow me to refresh your memory:"Seems silly, to raise hybrids for such small markets as the tropicals". Coming back to you now is it?

"Stretches of management and marketing training. Thirty years various business consultancy employment."

So anything on your part vaguely related to horticultural is a 'stretch of the imagination"? Why am I not surprised?><g>

"I would have no problem sending my resume to Paula Biles of the iwgs, should she think it appropriate."

Well then I question HER credentials. ....she's had me submit articles, what kind of rag was I writing for?; and she has offered her resignation.<g>

"what are my credentials? credentials or qualifications? slim to none. No other tangible evidence."

Kind of a harsh self-assessment Andrew, but then who am I to argue with you? I mean they were all clipped and quoted from your statements. Not so funny when the tables are turned, eh ,my friend.

andrew davis · « **Reply #92 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:08:08 PM »

>>Please allow me to refresh your memory:"Seems silly, to raise hybrids for such small markets as the tropicals". Coming back to you now is it?

More folk live in climates outside of the tropics, eg the whole of Europe, most of America. I don't anticipate any tropical conditions for more than a couple of months. It would be silly for me to give over much space to them when there are plenty of hardies to choose between that have a seven? month flowering season

>>Kind of a harsh self-assessment Andrew, but then who am I to argue with you? I mean they were all clipped and quoted from your statements. Not so funny when the tables are turned, eh ,my friend

Deliberate falsified misquotes, well, no, nothing witty at all.

Regards, andy
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

Koi Boi · « **Reply #93 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:20:03 PM »

I love this thread, pissing contest or not! I’m sure it is boring to those who don’t need to learn anything more, but even though I know enough after 15 years to have decent success, I am still a rank amateur and grateful for any tidbits of information that I can get. People like Craig, Sean, Joyce and others not only have information that can be utilized to increase our proficiency in our pondering pursuits but have information that even if left unused will yet enrich the experience. Do I know what questions to ask in order to pry knowledge from the minds of these people. AN EMPHATIC NO!!!! Do I have any half-baked opinions that I would care to spew forth in order to evoke the kind of informed responses these people give. NO AGAIN!!! Then how else unless brave souls like Andrew boldly step forth to be splayed with the swords of enlightenment. Hail Andrew! I have learned much and had great laughs as well both here and in the Koiphen posts from Craig and Andrew. This kind of discourse doesn’t need to be viewed as a negative thing, for there are great positives to be gleaned from it. Thank you for indulging me this moment for a comment.

Paul

El Jefe · « **Reply #94 on:** February 07, 2007, 10:32:34 PM »

Our moderators have asked us kindly to keep it on topic and it is digressing. I have learned many things about several issues not the least of which is Water Lilies. There are many learned individuals here that have a wealth of knowledge and I for one am glad they share. Curious though that Andrew didn't know what an Escarboucle water liliy is/was being a conniseur of Hardy water lilies. It looks alot like this:

I think they are great. Just hope they are doing well. Now If you notice I did try and engage in topic direct conversation and again I was given some offhand comment and then was treated to an answer. I really do not get why things must be demeaned so............ But staying on topic... Joyce if they return this spring or If I can muster up the werewithall to go into the pond and fetch them out and check on their progress and the results are positive I will be glad to share or trade since I do not have an Arc en Ciel. If you don't mind I might want to pick your brain a little on pond landscaping as it tropubles me that I cannot make it look the way I want. Yet I know what I want it to look like. Maybe after I get the Internet Camera up I can have you look it over via the camera (you can pan scan and zoom with it) And give me some ideas.

Now about the Seed pods and the Pilot leaves?........I realize these are real basic questions but there are people that want to know and I am genuinely curious. I am partially trying to determine why some of my lilies retreated back to the basket with just the "Pilot Leaves" showing and others continued to grow through the winter (all hardies)

Craig, speaking of Australian lilies, some of the seed in the 75 degree tank appear to be sprouting ,at least there is a minute green plantlet growing from the top of the seed heads. do I need to move them or leave them?

On another note; if you recall Andrew did not like the whole concept of this thread, so by act or deed he is attempting to get it shut down. I do not like being unable to finish what I start so I am disengaging myself from the rhetoric. Honestly there is alot to be learned here, so much so that I believe it to be worthy of continuing. The back and forth between several of the members does actually have a lot to be gleaned from it as well. A guest would know whos information to take seriously and whose not to or with a grain of salt anyway, I say leave it up. That way new posters/members are forewarned.

$:-\$ So how does Hardy know when to bloom? two of these lilies were very reluctant to DO much till I turned up the heat
Andy

Johns · « **Reply #95 on:** February 08, 2007, 06:30:45 AM »

On Topic, off topic. Sorry Ele Jefe, it was not I that took the oblique path and I will not suffer an insult without rejoinder.

"Johns makes claims to know the most, the longest about aquatic plants, why not ask him." (Andrew)

Andrew, exactly where did I say that? Do you actually read others posts before answering?

"A small clique of folk of questionable morals, character, social skills, with barely the wit to remotely stay on topic are hardly a novelty on public message boards or chat rooms." (Andrew)

A self protrait, perhaps?

I will have no more to say on this thread, unless, of course, Andrew cannot let sleeping dogs lie.....

Marilyn C · « **Reply #96 on:** February 08, 2007, 07:42:58 AM »

I wanted to weigh in with my experiences of boxed lilies. Forgive me...I haven't had time to read all the responses. I just read the first page and the last page, but I will go back and read it all, as soon as I get a chance.

I've raised waterlilies for 40 years...not so much the last two years...I just let everything go. I am in the process of potting lilies now and cleaning tanks, some that have not been touched for 6 or 7 years. Anyway...that's beside the point.

I have never had any problems getting boxed lilies to grow. Admittedly, some are labeled wrong. I had Burgundy Princess turn out to be Pink Opal. And a couple of other mistakes. I've bought them just for the fun of it. All took off and grew with no problems.

I bought some this year, as a matter of fact. Attraction, "Alba" (I think they mean M. Albida??? Because I think that is what usually shows up...altho the picture on the package showed Gonnere.

), Sioux (I already have Sioux...but just for grins...), and James Brydon. I no longer have James Brydon, but it was my husband's favorite lily. A little $5 plus
change gamble to see what it turns out to be.

The only quarrel with them that I have is that many people will be lead to believe that you can just grow them in those little coconut fiber thingys, or those small little pots. But the "Alba" and Attraction came in a box together with directions to start them in the coconut fiber stuff and then when they grow a little pot them in soil...and they gave reasonable directions.

I have several friends in the watergarden nursery business. They tell me that 90% of their customers don't give a darn what a lily is named. They will come in and buy what is blooming best that day. They aren't like a lot of us that want at least one of every lily out there, want to know the names...have to know the names, etc.

I have bought lilies from many sources. I have received lilies in all kinds of conditions and lots of mis-named ones. I don't think I have ever had any trouble getting any of them to grow. I guess that is why I like them so much. They are easy to grow and, of course, they are beautiful, and many smell wonderfully.

Would I say that the Big Box stores are the best places to buy waterlilies? Of course not. But, I can say that I have never had any trouble getting any to grow, and I have 4 sitting out there in my new tanks right now.

Maybe it was "being out of watergardening" for a couple of years...that I was sort of seduced into buying those lilies.
I know they may end up being something entirely different than the names on the package...but it was a cold winter day (well, cold for here

and so, what the heck?

Something else I bought was Iris laevigata. I used to have that years ago, and that is one thing from boxes that probably won't grow well...but a puny little iris was trying to grow up through the coconut medium, and I felt sorry for it, and brought it home. So far, so good. It may end up to be I. pseudacorus....and if it does, I will be laughing at myself.

Something else I bought was the cattails. In the past, when I bought them in boxes, they didn't grow....but usually I would get them well into the spring and they would be dead from lack of light and moisture. Since it was early January, and they were also trying to grow, I brought some of those home too. Call me a sucker. I don't care.

Anyway...I am not saying don't buy from reputable sources. I am just saying, I have never had any trouble getting them to grow and bloom, and grow and bloom very well. To me, it is sort of like a grab bag. It was a little diversion
on a cold, rainy day.

I'll take pictures of mine when they bloom...we'll see what they are then.

Oh, and before I am chastised for lilies that take up a lot of space...I have a lot of space. I recently gave away all of my koi, which were in a mud pond. I may put some "mongrel" lilies in there...just for grins.

Sean · « **Reply #97 on:** February 08, 2007, 08:02:05 AM »

Thank you for weighing in here Marilyn.

I believe you are probably the one person who has more experience with both tropical and hardy waterlilies on this forum than most anyone else. If you haven't had it, it probably hasn't been available to anyone else.

Your years of practical experience with such a diverse collection gives you much more clout to stand by your statements.

Others like John Johns who has also been growing for longer than most members here have been alive and Craig who is a renowned grower and hybridizer are amongst the very few that I consider to be worthy recommending people to for accurate and concise information.

I hope you decide to weigh in a little more as the ponding season draws closer Marilyn, you have been sorely missed!

Cheers,
Sean

tammie · « **Reply #98 on:** February 08, 2007, 08:22:56 AM »

Hi Marilyn!

Sure am glad to hear from you, you've been missed!

Heh! My mom worked for Walt Disney, as his bookeeper in the early '60s! He had dinner at our house a bunch of times! And - I've had Sean and Mike over to my house for lunch! So that gives me credibility too, right

Okay, enough.
Tammie

andrew davis · « **Reply #99 on:** February 08, 2007, 11:43:45 AM »

>>if you recall Andrew did not like the whole concept of this thread, so by act or deed he is attempting to get it shut down

Where did I indicate that. I specified the pro's and con's of gambling on plants from unreliable sources. Little things like, you have no cultivation information likely to be critical eg heat tolerance. Growing size. Spreading habit. The risk of destroying ponds with unsuitable plants. No reliable identification. Poorly cropped, poorly stored plants etc. The potential liability when it turns out to be a disappointment

>>Curious though that Andrew didn't know what an Escarboucle water liliy is/was being a connoisseur of Hardy water lilies

This is what I mentioned of Escarboucle:
>>Escarboucle can be a tetchy variety to get going. About as good as the reds can get if it does establish, the first to die if ever crown rot gets into a pond (Knowing folk have a flowering Escarboucle is encouraging)

I referred to not knowing what Bernice Ikins(?) is like. Other than recalling having seen other folks photos and looking it up in a reference book. I do vaguely recall passing it over when I was choosing between peachy things. Plumped for Georgia Peach, Florida Sunset Peach, Peaches and Cream, Indiana and others whose name I forget. Must remember to put the label in the pot, jot their name down in the back of a book.

There are allsorts of lilies out there, I take my pick of the bunch like anyone else. With having visited many collectors from an early age, e.g. folk who maintained national collections, kew gardens, subscribed to the international waterlily society membership at a time when it really, really was worth a subscription, I just might have had a good start. I would have to say, guys like Norman Bennett, Ray Davies, Philip Swindells really, really did the subject great credit

>>"Johns makes claims to know the most, the longest about aquatic plants, why not ask him." (Andrew)

Andrew, exactly where did I say that? Do you actually read others posts before answering?

>>"Johns: I have been growing water lilies as a hobby for 35 years, from the time that Andrew was about 15 years old."

Disregarding what experience, colleagues and resources other folk have had access to.... you would appear to claim to know better than others.

Regards, andy
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

Marilyn C · « **Reply #100 on:** February 08, 2007, 11:59:30 AM »

I still haven't finished reading this thread....but my mind is swirling.

Andrew, check your facts on Colorado. It is not an odorata. Dr. Strawn used a lot of the same varieties in his crosses that Marliac did. I agree...odoratas grow at warp speed. Not all odoratas are great bloomers either...such as Lilypons. It does do better when it can spread out and produce multiple growing points, so that is one reason it does poorly or is slow in a pot. In a mud bottom pond it is a lot better.

How anyone could say anything bad about Colorado is beyond me. But, to each his own. I recall you didn't like Hollandia either, and it is one of my favorites....also a marliac. I don't know if I even have any more odoratas here.
I potted one yesterday...that may be my only one. I would say that when I come across some in potting, I will take pics to show the differences in the rhizomes.

El Jefe, I wouldn't be cutting anything off of the Walmart lilies just yet. I don't know your climate, but as soon as you can pot them in some good soil, in a container that has good surface area....hardies need surface area much more so than tropicals...I would do that.

James Brydon can be a little slow in hot climates, but it does bloom fairly well, and in spurts. I am going to buy another James Brydon, if my Walmart turns out not to be it. I am fairly familar with it's pads, so when the mature pads are up, I will be able to tell if this is probably James Brydon. The bloom is very distinctive, so when it blooms, it will be easy to tell.

My husband is working in here, so I have to get offline. Will read more later.

slackjeep · « **Reply #101 on:** February 08, 2007, 12:04:51 PM »

Quote from: Joyce on February 07, 2007, 04:52:38 PM

She convinced me it is time NOT to have a boss, but to be my own,

Joyce, I hate to break it to you ... but when you go out on your own you will not have "no boss"

you will have 100s of bosses!

andrew davis · « **Reply #102 on:** February 08, 2007, 12:30:29 PM »

>>Andrew, check your facts on Colorado. It is not an odorata. Dr. Strawn used a lot of the same varieties in his crosses that Marliac did. I agree...odoratas grow at warp speed. Not all odoratas are great bloomers either...such as Lilypons

Hi Marilyn,
You could be right. My assumption was based on what I remembered the rhisome to look like, the last time I moved it. Colorado's parent were Louise Villemarte (An odorata) and Mexicana (running rhisome if ever there was) if I recall...

A thoroughly mediocre plant compared to the other peach varieties here, it got relegated to the most infertile shadey spot to give better space to nicer varieties. It may get further relegated, out of the pond altogether next time I need the space

BTW your Gloriosa turned out well, it's better than the two different forms I got from Bennett's and Perry's

>>I recall you didn't like Hollandia either, and it is one of my favorites....also a marliac

Hollandia took a year to get up to a flowering size, it was such a poorly root cropped plant when it turned up, a dried out bone. Absolutely ghastly. I was amazed it recovered at all.

Its early blooms were horrible, pathetic things in its second Summer. In its third Summer, it seemed to settle down and grow...

Hollandia has some very desirable characteristic. Reliable, gorgeous blooms (rather low flower to leaf) good for creating shade on a hot sunny spot, sturdy, great cover for fish from predators. Steady slow spread is a real nice feature.

I stunted a spare piece of that down to a flowering three foot wide plant on the hottest sunniest pond (100°f water, 130°f air temp) and it survived (That kills many of the trops) When comparing hardies and trops on a hot sunny position

My disappointment, if you recall a little better, regarding Hollandia, besides the dried stump struggling to recover, horrible first Summer, it was supposed to be Rose Arey.

oh, you want a JB? got some very, very nice spares probably easy to lift with a good set of feeder roots... umm, would you by chance, have found where you put your atropurpurea

Regards, andy
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

Marilyn C · « **Reply #103 on:** February 08, 2007, 01:35:21 PM »

I think I got Atropurpurea from Jean Niemi. I got many red hardies from her. I don't think I have very many of them left at all. I didn't pot hardies for a "few" years. The tanks were overgrown with aquatic weeds and weeds around the outside too. I am just going to go through and see what is left and if I am missing anything terribly, just buy it again.
I've come to the place where I really don't care very much what I have any more. There are a few I love and will always keep, but I can't get back into it as deeply as before. I created a monster here.

I'll wait and see if James Brydon is true or not. I should know when it puts up a few mature pads. I've got to get a grip on what I have here before I start trading again, and re-creating that monster.

andrew davis · « **Reply #104 on:** February 08, 2007, 01:59:20 PM »

>>but I can't get back into it as deeply as before. I created a monster here.

Yup, some beasties they can be when they get to romping. Did Niemi mention, if she got the Niemi I sent her, when she lost hers? Someone asked me to send one for her, a while ago

No worries on the atropurpurea, if you lost it, it's gone. If you want a dead cert James Brydon, that took only one stop at the English national collection along the way, provenance Maliac, let me know

Out of curiosity, if you were to choose your favourites, what would they be?

Regards, andy
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

Craig · « **Reply #105 on:** February 08, 2007, 02:00:49 PM »

<<Could this thread from this point forward please stay on topic.>>

<sigh> I guess recess is over. Time for some dry facts albeit on a wet subject.<g>

<<More folk live in climates outside of the tropics, eg the whole of Europe, most of America>>

There is no necessary correlation as to were people live and how they choose to spend their money for play. Look at the proliferation of the Orchids sales across all of Europe and North America. Trend of fad I cannot say at this point, but US grower sales show a decided decline in hardy numbers and an increase in the sales of tropicals ( and lotus).

<<Pilot leaves>>

Ready for the techincal term? Hold on to your hats....'Submerged foliage' or 'leaves in submerged hydrophytes'. Comes in three forms entire, fenestrated and dissected. Those of Nymphaea are 'entire'. The physiological significance? This from ' The Biology of Aquatic Vascular Plants: They have " a high ratio of surface area to volume, which presumably increases their efficiency in absorbing adequate supplies of dissolved carbon dioxide, oxygen, and mineral nutirents. This structural feature is probably a response to the diminished light intensity, rather than the aquatic nature of the environment, but its facilitation of gaseous exchange and salt absorption is likely to have been of selective advantage in the evolution of submerged flora.

Andy....you asked about Potamegeton. The problem with many of the submerged plants available, is that it is an adaptation to seasonal flooding and they are going to want to break the surface. Of the obligate aquatics...those with no emersed form...Vallisneria might work for you as well as Myriophyllum sp. ie the native 'Foxtail'. I wouldn't fear the Elodea however...because also from the aforementioned text....it spreads quickly, peaks and then declines to non-problem levels. This fact from studies done on populations in the UK. The other plants in the study Largosiphon ( a big, big no-no in the US) and Egeria ( Anacharis) did not decline and in fact increased in abundance as the Elodea declined. So Elodea good (native)....Anacharis bad.

Seeds....though a pod will sink at first, once it is ripe it again reaches the surface and ruptures. The seed are released in gel capsules ( arils) and float off for 24 hrs or so before the gel dissolves and they sink. So the vigor of the plant has nothing to do with the extent of the seed dispersal.

I'd like to play more, but later on that...off to do battle with my inspector od shipments to the EU. Later

Marilyn C · « **Reply #106 on:** February 08, 2007, 02:01:34 PM »

Reading a little more...perhaps I should post my claim to fame.

I've been kissed (on the lips!) by Norman Bennett!!

Okay, okay...it was just a peck...but it was a kiss, just the same.

Oh, and my husband's father knew Dr. Strawn when he was doing his graduate work in Cedar Key, Florida back in the early
1950's.

What this amounts to....I have no idea...but I thought I would relate it just the same.

Johns · « **Reply #107 on:** February 08, 2007, 04:01:02 PM »

Andrew,

That is a beautiful picture of Escarboucle. I never got the colors to come out quite that vividly crimson. Nice lighting effect too.

Craig · « **Reply #108 on:** February 08, 2007, 04:44:56 PM »

Hi Marilyn,

Good to see you around again.

For the most part I agree with your comments on big box store lilies and a number of retailers I have spoken with think the cheap product they sell is actually good for the industry in that it gets new people interested and as the become more educated their wants become more sophisticated and they then need to turn to more main line sources.

I know it will come as no surprise to you, but my problem is with them being able to peddle misnamed lilies and no one seems to care! If they would label them simply by color everything would be fine. On an intuitive level it does seem true that a large percentage of people don't care about a lilies name....I think it was Rich Sacher that told me most of his customers that do want a name only want it so when they kill it they can replace it with the same thing....but when you look more closely, the lack of caring just doesn't seem to be true.

If it were true, why would the suppliers of the big box store go through the sham of mislableling them. There is some value in a name and they know it and try to cash in on that cachet by offering a mislabeled lily knowing full well that most peoples reaction will be an "oh well, it may not be what I paid for, but it is still a pretty lily". Why not demand what you paid for? I can't think of any other item that people would accept the fraud and not feel they'd been screwed.

Even with my offerings....unnamed lilies are the lowest priced and still by far the smallest percentage of my lily sales. So it seems that people profess not to care, but the facts don't seem to support it.

And it happens outside of BB stores as well. There is no lily 'Florida Sunset Peach', but no doubt it will be listed on ebay as such this coming season and the confusion needlessly begins and before you know it due to a lack of attention or concern, there will be two lilies out there instead of the one correct one...N. 'Florida Sunset'.

'Gloriosa' there can be only one 'Gloriosa'....no "forms". There may be forms of species lilies, but as far as cultivars go, by defintion there can be only one true and then counterfeit ones. And I think the misnaming is intentional and due solely to greed. Walmart will sell more lilies falsely labeled as 'Attraction' than they would sell 'Red Hardy". The same mindset will say I have a "form" of 'Gloriosa' to sell rather than lose a sale by admitting they don't have the real thing. Easier to prey on the uneducated consumer than to educate them. Better to pretend to have a lily Florida Sunset Peach that no one else has than be just another seller of Florida Sunset.

And to end my little diatribe.....hopefully the WGI 'Truly Named' program and the push to educate consumers will make life harder for the scamsters.

Finally...my claim to fame? In the late 80's, Alice Cooper used one of my snakes for his tour. Got to go to the dress rehearsal before the tour started and the concert and backstage party when the tour ended in LA.<g>

Argos5 · « **Reply #109 on:** February 08, 2007, 05:18:48 PM »

I remember telling Frank Sinatra before he died how much I hated name dropping.

Marilyn C · « **Reply #110 on:** February 08, 2007, 05:48:00 PM »

The big box stores sell a lot of those little preformed pond kits, complete with fountain or waterfall. I think that is the worst way in the world to start a pond, but that is what first interests a lot of people. They get a lily in one of those pre-packaged boxes, plunk it down under the fountain, and then wonder why it doesn't grow. If the pond turns green, they throw in a good dose of algaecide. But, you have to start somewhere. I started with an old concrete cattle trough.

You say they peddle misnamed lilies and no one seems to care...that's true...but most of the people don't know. I went to a local watergarden nursery and asked about the name of a red lily in the pond. The lady working there, thought a moment and told me "Reflection." Ah...so I knew she meant Attraction...but "Reflection" would make a pretty name for a lily.

If my Walmart Attraction blooms and is a red lily, that still doesn't mean it is Attraction, and I doubt I would know the real Attraction.

The lilies are not only often misnamed, but you think you are getting a red lily and it ends up a white one. I guess if they run low on one thing, they toss something else into the bag. Sometimes some little gems turn up in the bags tho. Like Joyce's Pygmaea. I believe that came from a big box store as a Helvola. Okay, so it is as rare as a cadillac in a Cracker Jack box.

I understand how you feel. I also wish that lilies were very distinctive so they would be easier to tell apart.

Anyway, my original post was mainly to say that yes, boxed lilies will grow and bloom well. What they turn out to be could be anybody's guess.

El Jefe · « **Reply #111 on:** February 08, 2007, 07:11:09 PM »

Wow, New names and new faces Great info

and Craig THANK YOU!! Marilyn C. Your input is welcome and thank you for participating. This is going to be a much better thread with this kind of participation.
Atropurpurea did I hear someone say Atropurpurea..... I had asked after it in another thread. I was told it may not do well here in Tallahassee because of the heat so I reluctantly gave up on that idea.

Quote

El Jefe, I wouldn't be cutting anything off of the Walmart lilies just yet. I don't know your climate, but as soon as you can pot them in some good soil, in a container that has good surface area....hardies need surface area much more so than tropicals...I would do that

Marilyn, one of the observations was that these lilies did not come with any soil just the bare rhizome so it was not a good idea to just drop it in the water straight out of the box. I pulled the rhizomes and photographed them (if you managed to wade that far

)and when I did I noticed that two of the lillies had several plants growing (the James Brydon had one solid one very low on the plant so I separated it and replanted it. and it has rooted up quickly, thus the plant in the Orange bowl) I planted all of them in a mix recommended by Tim and they all started grow and well

I inquired aout the sioux because I had read somewhere you could remove the small eyes and the would grow, much like a potato eye. Then the members here told me to leave it be so I did. They are in smaller pots at the moment, just for the experiment, then I will move them to larger pots and ultimately to my Pond where hopefully be a fine addition to it. I promise no dividing until they have had some time to establish.

Craig, I planted a form of Vallisneria and Sagittaria subulata hoping they will cover the shallow areas. I also planted Elocharis aroundthe edges where it will help to control the silt. I am having second thoughts about the native elodea. I really need to clear up that water.
Andy

andrew davis · « **Reply #112 on:** February 08, 2007, 08:30:39 PM »

>>There is no lily 'Florida Sunset Peach', but no doubt it will be listed on ebay as such this coming season and the confusion needlessly begins

Florida Sunset, is a peach colour. That is what I remember, off the top of my head in the middle of Winter. That is the name put on the label in the pot a couple of years ago. It's a bit chilly right now to go look at it.

Attraction Red, might be on the label of, Attraction!

Lemon Mist Yellow, might be on, Lemon Mist!

>>'Gloriosa' there can be only one 'Gloriosa'....no "forms". There may be forms of species lilies, but as far as cultivars go, by defintion there can be only one true and then counterfeit ones.

I have three different versions. Two from 'truly named' participants and one from Marilyn. One day I'll pick blooms off all three, pick them apart, to see which matches Marliac's description best. Marilyn's version is clearly the better flowering plant, which reminds me, private collectors are usually by far and away the better source for collecting waterlilies. Plants from resellers and retailers, well, they are a pot luck gamble.

Ah, fond memories of excursions to Bennett's, to sit beside the pond, look at the Gloriosa and chuckle with the guys, which one came from Marliac, and which one came from Perry's

>>If it were true, why would the suppliers of the big box store go through the sham of mislabeling them.

Well, if they are those that were picked and packed in China at 20c apiece, by workers with pitiful human rights, the chances of folk reading Chinese is pretty low. But, who cares, the customer will never know what unscrupulous labour practices were being exploited to put cheap product on the shelf

>>That is a beautiful picture of Escarboucle. I never got the colors to come out quite that vividly crimson. Nice lighting effect too

Kodachrome is pretty good at getting strong saturated colours accurate. Colour correcting the final scan against the original slide ensures a good level of accuracy. Yup, that is one of the advantages of growing, and knowing them, when the light and the bloom are doing their thing you can wait for a moment to get the most accurate photo, juggling the limitations of the equipment limited ability to cope

>>For the most part I agree with your comments on big box store lilies and a number of retailers I have spoken with think the cheap product they sell is actually good for the industry in that it gets new people interested and as the become more educated their wants become more sophisticated and they then need to turn to more main line sources

It's better known as product dumping. To destroy local business, local competition, local jobs, local skills

>>Anyway, my original post was mainly to say that yes, boxed lilies will grow and bloom well. What they turn out to be could be anybody's guess

The other half of the story, besides getting a waterlily, is knowing, what to do with them. Which is where the reseller and retailer have nothing like the knowledge critical to the success of the plant, of the folk who know them, and grow them.

>>I had asked after it in another thread. I was told it may not do well here in Tallahassee because of the heat

It may do well with midday shade. The blooms can't take 100°f or so, otherwise it will thrive

Regards, andy
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

El Jefe · « **Reply #113 on:** February 08, 2007, 09:07:36 PM »

I can't remember the last 100 degree day we had here in northern Florida, and my pond is deep in some areas and thus cooler. I have some very shady areas as well so Hmm I may well want to revisit this! Any body have an extra??

Sean · « **Reply #114 on:** February 09, 2007, 03:36:03 AM »

Some reds just burn bad no matter where you live. I am in Canada and had two reds burn when I was still growing hardies and we dont get that hot.

Cheers,
Sean

SheilaJ · « **Reply #115 on:** February 09, 2007, 04:43:28 AM »

Craig, thanks for the info on "pilot leaves". That would explain why I get so many of them indoors in the winter when I put the tropicals in a warm room under not-very-bright grow lights.

Marilyn, good to see you again.

Joyce · « **Reply #116 on:** February 09, 2007, 06:18:42 AM »

Welcome back Marilyn!
Nice to have anyone as knowledgeable as you are with lilies here.

Yup, if I hadn't gone to Lowes that day, I would never had bought that odd N. pygmaea.

Oh, I sat next to Itzhak Perlman at The Palm one night for dinner.
So now I am a music expert too.

Oh! And we did a landscape job for Richard Gere too, and he walked right through my office...

so now I am an actress!

Marilyn C · « **Reply #117 on:** February 09, 2007, 06:34:48 AM »

Andrew, that Gloriosa came to me several years ago from a watergarden nursery as Gloriosa, but I can't swear to it that it is the real one. I mean, how could one know? There are so many similar small reds. I don't think everyone does it, but when you mailorder lilies and you want a particular one and they are out, I think they just chunk a similar one in the box and don't say anything. It would be nice if they said they had substituted...but sometimes they don't.

I agree that buying lilies is often a potluck gamble. But, so is trading...I've gotten some very strange plants in trades...like mexicana for Yellow Dazzler.

Some of the local watergarden nurseries...the people have little or no knowledge of waterlilies. And I'm not just talking about the hired help. Went to one and inquired about a particular lily and the owner brought out Speichert's book and
looked it up. It was one in the book that was listed wrong. It's a pink lily and he had it down as white. I was more or less told that was the authority...and I didn't know what I was talking about. I really didn't argue much. I just thanked him for correcting me and went on my way. But though they are selling lilies, they don't know much about them and their primary focus is koi....and I doubt they know much about them.

There's a new place opened up not far from here. I will have to check them out when it warms up a little more. They were primarily a landscaping outfit tho...so again, I doubt they have very much knowledge about varieties of waterlilies.

I have bought the same waterlilies over and over to try to make sure I have the correct one.

One lily that confounds me is Patio Joe. I saw it at one watergarden nursery and it was a light colored pink.
I ordered it and I traded for it twice and all three times it turned out to be identical to Colorado. I am going to plant it in the mud pond and forget about it.

El Jefe, I didn't look at the pictures. I was reading not logged in and they don't show up, but they probably arrived the same as mine...in a mesh bag with coconut fiber and a little spaghnum moss around it in a little pot with a little "silk flower plant locater."

I haven't planted mine. I just chunked them in a tank, but they are growing. I will pot them in a day or so....as soon as I go dig some soil. I live on a bayou and a few weeks ago we had a flood of sorts that left a 6" layer of silt in some areas. Once dry, it has turned out to be fairly heavy soil...just about right for waterlilies. Soil has been a problem for me since moving here...the ground is very heavy, sticky clay. This stuff is heavy but you can still handle it.

El Jefe · « **Reply #118 on:** February 09, 2007, 07:08:34 AM »

Marilyn C
Take a minute to look over the pictures you may well see something I missed. Also my James Brydon has one pad all the way to the surface with a second just breaking the surface I can photo and post those here if it helps in the Identification process. You are correct they arrived exactly the same way as yours.
Where is Here exactly? If you do not mind me asking. Thanks Andy

Rocmon · « **Reply #119 on:** February 09, 2007, 01:21:58 PM »

Whew! This is certainly a long thread to wade through. No doubt it would be half the length if folks could contain their egos.

Thanks for continuing the great experiment, my theory is they appear to be viable plants, they will grow given favorable conditions—irrespective of pedigree, but more akin to their nature.

I haven't any experience to speak of having only had my pond going towards my third spring with a "real" pond. Having said that, I went to a flower and garden show my first year and shelled out $25–$35 for two named lilies from a well marketed grower. One was true to name—in my limited ability to know—Ladakari Fulgens, the other an "Aurora" ended up being probably a "Colorado." I wrote the grower when it first flowered and sent a picture saying is this right? After treading water a long time, they finally fessed up to a lily of mistaken identity. They offered to replace it if I sent back the wrong one—a well established plant by this time after spending several months growing in my pond... yea, who does that? Or a $10 credit towards other plants.

I also bought an $8 "yellow" lily from Pet Smart. Which ended up being what looks like "Aurora" a changeable tiny flower that is certainly not a yellow in my opinion. ( yes, I know what your thinking, No I didn't mix them up.

)

So what am I saying? $25 lily not as labeled, $8 lily not as labeled. Doesn't matter who you buy from screw-ups happen. I'm sure if I took my $8 Pet Smart lily back they would surely replace it with another one labeled yellow.

Bottom line; plants grow when conditions are favorable. I had an Arc-en-ciel die from a forum seller but that doesn't mean it was a bad plant but that I didn't provide the conditions it needed.

Ego trip:
I have a baseball that Bobby Bonds (not barry) signed for me after a game, and Juan Marichal also signed it. I stood next to Willy Mays' pink Cadillac as he drove by. I've paddled whitewater with Phil Deremer, Rob Lesser, Richard Montgomey, and boated with Reg Lake and many more, doesn't mean I'm a good boater... So whoopty doo, who I have seen, talked with, doesn't say all that much about me, doesn't mean I'm special. More it says who I think is special. If I'm pushy enough to get my self in a famous person's presence only means I'm pushy enough to get myself in a famous persons presence. We live by our fortunes, some meet great people, some go great places, some have amazing experiences, some others are stuck here listening to ego's run amuk...