Author Topic: Watergardening Institute taken over by porn (Read 7686 times)

Johns · « **on:** January 28, 2007, 05:39:51 AM »

I had not visited the site in a while and took a look today. What a surprise and what a shame. Apparently no one is moderating the board anymore. It should be taken down.

Jerry · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2007, 08:44:35 AM »

Johns, can you link me? I would like to see what's going on.

Esther · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2007, 08:59:52 AM »

They never took kept an eye on it anyway so I'm not surprised. That's why I left.

Jerry · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2007, 09:19:26 AM »

Thanks for the addy Esther, i did look, No i don't need to see Angela Joile's boobs, well mayge a quick peek! kidding!

The site is obviously been abondoned.

Teresa · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2007, 09:31:15 AM »

From what I understand, Sue and Greg started that board, but it was taken away from them by whomever now owns the magazine . . . . so even tho it may look like their board, it has been stolen and abandoned by someone else.

Esther · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2007, 11:14:32 AM »

Wonder if they know -- or care? From what I understand, the magazine has been abandoned too.

Craig · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2007, 11:58:30 AM »

I don't think "stolen" is the right word. If they did lose it, it would have been a court decision to settle their debt.

Sue contacted someone I know well in an attempt to sell the magazine, but I don't recall the "Institute" being included. I suspect they abandoned it when they figured out no one was willing to pay 20 bucks a month for the priviledge.

Jerry · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2007, 04:30:17 PM »

Before starting AP i did, call, email, snail mail, and fax AWGS I offered to discuss my buying the board. You guessed it , no reply ever.

They would have been at least a grand to the good.

El Jefe · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2007, 05:10:40 PM »

Excuse my ignorance but what was the name of the Magazine?

El Jefe · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2007, 06:03:12 PM »

Well I googled the name and found the board, (not the name of the magazine) and it appears as though it has been iindeed left to die. As a board admin myself I can tell you that boards get spammed with porno all the time, The common method is to use a spambot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spambot You have to block access or go to a moderator approved board or use the code method for approval called a CAPTCHA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAPTCHA (you have to input a code to gain access the first time) When the "bots" find your board you have a heck of a time cleaning it up. if you wait to long it will kill off your board. Looks like that is what happened here, left unmoderated and on it's own it got spammed badly. I even tried to look through the member list to see is any REAL people were left. What I found was a memberlist that had very few legitimate posters in it's database. An inadvertent invitation to this board to what may look like a legitimate poster could expose this board. I saw a few names I recognized from this board and others. It appears that anyone after Member #174 or 175 is a result of spambots. Actually anyone who Joined after 30 October 2006. Jerry you should log onto your profile and remove any reference to this site. If anyone knows who the admins are let them know to kill of any names after entry #174, That Database needs to be flushed and started over with more securities in place. May be better off taking it off line at this point. Wish someone would, kids can easily access the porno from the memberlist and do so from what appears to be a legitimate site.... Ugh
Andy

Jerry · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2007, 10:18:32 PM »

Andy thanks for the info. Sean is pretty sharp about this. i will call it to his attention.
i suspect he has some safeguards built in.

Sean · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2007, 10:55:34 PM »

We do have captcha built in to stop spamers. I log in many times a day to moderate as well and download the whole database daily so if anything went wrong, I could have the forum running in a matter of hours with a fresh install and minimal losses.

Cheers,
Sean

El Jefe · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2007, 05:57:21 AM »

Be advised that just by researching the database (memberlist) I was getting slammed by Trojans. 2 of them got through and I am in the process of cleaning my home machine. There are several of our users there so maybe a sticky thread to warn our users away. That site is a mess.
Sean way to stay on top of it! good job. Andy

Esther · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2007, 02:33:17 PM »

I tried to find a good phone # for Sue and Greg on the internet but every number I called this weekend had been disconnected.

El Jefe · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2007, 07:55:18 PM »

$:-\$ wait a minute.....hold on a sec...... As I am reading this thread and looked over at one of my favorite books it dawns on me Greg and Sue? you don't mean Greg and Sue Speichert authors of Encyclopedia of water garden plants Somebody has to tell me what happened here (or There as the case may be)..... Please? Andy

Jerry I noticed that you make reference to this place in our mission statement. Might it be pertinent to remove it lest we inadvertently send someone to Porn central?

Andy

LeeAnne151 · « **Reply #15 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:37:56 PM »

YES, it is THAT Sue and Greg.

Many of us met each other on their message board many years ago when it was a thriving community. I joined the board in May of 1999 and there were lots of folks that are here, there long before me. Marilyn C., Teresa, Johns, Joyce, Sean and many more. Many came to the Watergardening Magazine board from Garden Web becuase Spike was a jerk.

The board was never moderated much and Sue and Greg let us discuss whatever we wanted with very few rules which was totally fine by me although others didn't like it.

Several people started their own ponding message boards over the years, several of which are still going strong in addition to this one.

The magazine went through a struggle when Sue and Greg and their partner, Helen Nash "broke up" but survived.
After several years of stability in the last couple of years they had difficulties and some had problems getting their issues and then it went broke or they lost it to creditors, I don't know. Issues went from monthly to bimonthly to nothing. I know I didn't get a refund on my subscription and I didn't get the online magazine after the first issue either. I know Sue and Greg closed their mail order nursery too. I let Sue know about the porn months ago and for the first time, never got a reply from her.

Bonnie · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2007, 08:33:00 PM »

Regardless what's recently happened with the Speichert's, they received my money for a 2 yr subscription over a year ago and I received absolutely NOTHING!

I feel the least they could have done was to offer their latest book for those of us that got ripped off.

(Even though I purchased it too but could have sold it or given it as a gift)

Live and Learn...... If they ever come out with anymore books, etc....... I will NOT give them anymore of my hard earned money!

Mikey · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2007, 10:29:16 PM »

Here's Greg's latest adventure, Midwest Gardening Magazine http://www.midwestgardeningmag.com/about_us.html On his page it says, "Call us today! We're always here to help you." Of course he doesn't promise to actually pick up the phone.....

I gave up on them several years ago and I feel bad for those people who paid money and got nothing in return.

Viv · « **Reply #18 on:** February 01, 2007, 02:37:07 AM »

No offense meant to anyone who is here, but some of us remember the 'good ole' days of WGF. In it's heyday it was far more than a 'forum' to many of us.

Many of the members here wouldn't be here, or know each other, (and thank you Jerry and Sean for providing us with a home!) if it were not for the original site.

Personally I think it's extremely sad what has happend to our old home, no matter how many times it has changed its address. It has been a long, slow, and very sad decline for all involved.

Again...yes, I am thankful for this site, this is not intended as a slight to this forum.

Greg and Sue have obviously been through a very hard time, I don't see the point in continuing to degrade them further. If they had had the means, knowledge and wherewithal to do better I truly think they would have. Truth is, I think they really have no idea how much the forum meant to those involved, and the extent of the participation. I guess if I had been ripped off for a magazine subscription my thoughts might be slightly different, but I'd like to think not. We all go through bad times.

There you go...just my thoughts!

Edit:

And yes I do realise this is a very simplistic way of viewing recent events.

Craig · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2007, 04:20:12 AM »

Not to specifically "bash" the Speicherts, but I think it important to point out to those that bought the book that it contains a lot of material errors, especially with regard to the section on tropical lilies.

Misspellings, incorrectly attributed lilies, wrongly labeled...it was really quite a list of errors. So much so I wrote the publisher in hopes they will correct them should there be a reprint.

It was so bad I stopped reading since if I could spot so many in a section in which I have some experience, how could I trust what was presented in areas I know little about.

Jerry · « **Reply #20 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:45:52 AM »

If not for AWGS I'd never have "met" so many of you. For that alone i am grateful.
I think it speaks well of ponders that they wish the best for the Speichert's even if those ponders have been burned.
We were inspired to do this forum because of people like you!
I know Sean feels as I do.

LeeAnne151 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:47:39 AM »

Viv, I agree with you. I too lost money on the magazine subscription but really, I feel it is a small price to pay for the forum they provided for free.

Some people came to Sue and Greg's forum much later than others and while their experiences were not happy, many of us did have years of fun before the problems started.

My explanation above was not meant to bash Sue and Greg for having financial troubles but to explain to the poster who asked if we were talking about the same Sue and Greg.

I will be forever grateful to Sue and Greg for providing the forum which I would not have found if I hadn't subscribed to the magazine. I will be forever grateful for the friends I have met and knowledge I have gained. I cannot imagine not having my "Internet Pond Friends" !

Craig, Timber Press is a great publisher of gardening books, I'm sure they would correct any errors if they are proven to be errors to them. I can't imagine them not. They do some amazing books.

Mikey · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:15:56 AM »

Quote

I don't see the point in continuing to degrade them further.

My sarcastic point is meant to warn people as to what may happen if they do business with them. A member on another forum, not knowing their recent history, recently subscribed to their watergardening magazine only to learn after the fact that the magazine no longer was doing business, yet the Speicherts took his money. I read an on-line article about Greg wherein just this last summer he was still promoting their watergardening magazine to people attending his seminar when at the same time I was hearing from members here that they were not and had not received their magazine. That is not only unethical but it is dishonest and possibly fraudulent. I agree that their original forum was home for many of us but that is still no excuse for their continued very poor business practices of not responding to letters, e-mails and phone calls all while still accepting money for a defunct magazine.

For many years I was a supporter of Sue and Greg. In fact, even when this forum was still in its development stage prior to going on-line I suggested to Jerry that he put up a link to their site which Jerry did. However, after personally experiencing their poor customer service a few years ago when I was attempting to purchase a pond plant from them and then upon hearing dozens of other service complaints from other people, I now have a completely different view of them.

andrew davis · « **Reply #23 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:29:27 AM »

>>It was so bad I stopped reading since if I could spot so many in a section in which I have some experience, how could I trust what was presented in areas I know little about

Every published document is subject to some margin of error, interpretation of opinion.

Sources may have misspelled. Handwritten notes transcribed. Translations from Chinese to English, labels smudged. Genetic variation. Typesetters and proof readers having a bad day. Maybe budgets for funding the project were hopelessly unrealistic and managed by folk who did not have the time skills or competence.

Take Perry's book, in more than one incidence, the text description specifies one petal count, when you double check the photo, there is a big discrepancy.

It is absurd and unrealistic to expect any 'expert' source to be immune to error or interpretation in a subject as complex and widely dispersed as water gardening, where the vast majority of the subject is very poorly documented by way less than professional, opinionated folk. The factor of human error is always there. Taking that subject into the process of publishing adds a further dimension for budgetary, technical, mechanical, administrative error factors

Cross checking and double checking data is a luxury for quibbling armchair critics, in itself quite the spectator sport

Regards, andy
http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/

Bonnie · « **Reply #24 on:** February 01, 2007, 09:31:48 AM »

YES I am thankful that I was able to enjoy their free forum, but I believe it did help promote their magazine... ADVERTISEMENT

Absolutely Mikey....

Really it's not about the "money" but how they went about things..... fraud in my opinion.

Jerry · « **Reply #25 on:** February 01, 2007, 10:29:10 AM »

Mikey is correct, we did mention AWGS in our welcome statement. We removed it yesterday since it no longer exists.
I did offer to have a subscription banner for the magazine, yes free. Yes, no response.

El Jefe · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2007, 01:41:58 PM »

All, I asked because I was in shock

I just bought that book from amazon.com and I bought a subscription to a Water garden magazine (which I will check the exact name when I get home) Via Amazon. What was the name of the Magazine? I am going to be calling Amazon if they sold me a bogus subscription....

Seems to me that if they had a Forum that they could let people know what was going on, good loyal folks such as yourselves, then they should have said SOMETHING... I can understand if they felt the world was caving in on them and they withdrew and did not want to associate becuase they felt a sense of guilt of what was happening. That is all to natural sometimes. Piling on isn't and won't help anything but don't let your friends and neighbors get burned. At least if they are starting a new magazine they should offer their previous customers who still had valid subscriptions a subscrition to their new Magazine. If the Magazine I purchased in December through Amazon (which I received an e-mail stating my first issue would be in February) is never going to happen then I will be just a little preturbed especially if they were in the middle of this little problem and still took my money with zero intention of sending me anything. HOPEFULLY when I get home tonight I will discover it is a different Magazine. I will post the name later tonight. Andy

Craig · « **Reply #27 on:** February 01, 2007, 02:47:45 PM »

I'm not concerned with an occasional typo or the "interpretation of opinion" whatever the hell that means, but I'll take it as 'difference' of opinion.

In fact, that is why I clearly stated "material" errors. Errors of fact. A lily repeatedly labeled as 'Marion Strawn' is not a typo, it is an ignorance of the subject at hand. Same with the lily listed as 'Albert Greenburg'. 'Purple Zanzibar' is a William Frase lily, not a Florida Aquatic Nursery lily. Lilies listed as vivips that are not, lilies described as being pink instead of blue ( or vice versa, you'll have to forgive my lack of cerrtainty but I no longer have the book).

All errors of fact on the part of the authors. Not a thing to do with translations or handwritten notes. Errors all easily avoided if an expert author had taken the time or interest. There were others, but again, as I no longer have the book I won't risk conjecture.

Petal counts from pictures? Talk about an exercise in futility. I go by the count given in the hands on description and never bother to even count ones in a picture as it has always been my understanding that the hands on descriptions are official and the pictures an attempt at a visual representation. If Mr. Slocum was remiss in anything it was in not updating his taxonomy in the fifteen years between editions. For instance, it apparently leads some to believe that all Australian lilies are but forms of one species N. gigantea. Which can then lead to cultural problems among those that don't take the time to learn the different requirements of what are actually different species. And those varying needs go along way in explaining why they evolved to be different species to begin with. So there is really no comparison in the excellant job done by Mr. Slocum and the shoddy work in the Speicherts' book

"Cross checking and double checking data is a luxury for quibbling armchair critics"

LMAO....no Andrew, cross checking and double checking is the duty of someone purporting to be an expert writing an authoritative reference work. I for one expect no factual errors in a "reference' book.

Esther · « **Reply #28 on:** February 01, 2007, 03:16:18 PM »

I for one am glad I never added my name to that edition of Greg and Sue's various forum efforts. The member list still sits there in broad day light for all to see.

The new magazine by Greg is NOT a watergardening one.

Quote

Midwest Gardening Magazine
11717 Monroe Place
Crown Point, IN 46307
Phone 800/308-6157 (219/226-1779)
email greg@midwestgardeningmag.com

I emailed him and told him how his old forum was being used. I might just call that phone number tomorrow.

WHAT A JOKE!!
The email just came back undeliverable and the 800 # has some strange recording about dialing 10 for an international directory service for $5.95 or something.

El Jefe · « **Reply #29 on:** February 01, 2007, 10:01:52 PM »

I received the following from Amazon.com and IF THIS IS THE MAGAZINE then PLEASE someone post heree and let me know so I can make a phonecall.
" The following subscription was processed in this order: qty 1 Water Gardening Magazine" and that was on 11/11 2006. My First Issue is SUPPOSED to arrive between 05 Feb 2007 and O5 March 2007. Do I need to Call Amazon?????

Now I read a review that says they are out of business.........

This is them isn't it?

here was the first review:
I purchased a gift subscription (2 year) and after one year I asked the person how they liked the magazine. The comment was that content was starting to repeat itself and that while they liked it, there was no new information. I emailed the publisher to cancel the remainder of the Gift Subscription and got an email back with the following message:

We regret to inform you that publication of Water Gardening has been suspended.

Please direct all inquiries to

Kenneth Manning, Attorney at Law
James, James and Manning
200 Monticello Dr.
Dyer, IN 46311-1383
Phone (219) 865-8376
Fax: (219) 865-4054

And here was the second:

I purchased a 2 year subscription directly from Water Gardening Magazine. When realized my last 2 issues (which would have finished my subscription) had not arrived, I tried to contact them. Their PO Box has been closed with no forwarding and their phones and fax have been disconnected. I've tried to contact them by e-mail but don't expect an answer. For anyone needing to check on this, the magazine's phone numbers were 1-800-308-6157 and 219-374-9419. The fax was 219-374-9052. The address was Water Gardening Magazine/Crystal Palace, PO Box 607, St. John, IN 46373.

Man is Amazon going to get an earful, they are still selling it!