Author Topic: Water Changing Question?  (Read 4823 times)

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Offline frloplady

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2007, 10:59:16 PM »
Debbie if you are using irrigation water like I am I always know what my pond will look like after a water change..all I have to do is look at the river on the way home from town!

Only takes a day and it's cleared up again
Mary


Offline happyoutsidegirl

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2007, 09:49:35 AM »
It's been a week or so and it is clearing up some. Don't know why I didn't pay attention to the river, I drive buy it every day to and from work.Just excited I guess, and anctious to get things done.
I'm just happier outside!
 Debbie
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Offline rcr203

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2007, 10:25:54 AM »
If you have a filter that is the proper size for your pond, and clean it out on the right basis, the simple emptying of the water in the filter and re-filling should be enough of a water change, no?

I don't understand the claims of toxin buildup of phosphates and proteins if you have a well-filtered system, and you are doing the above emptying of the filter.

Additionally, the proper oxygenation of water through waterfalls and other methods should additionally help with release of certain 'toxins'.

While it is true that solids, for the most part, remain in the water, the natural system of a pond is being ignored.  Salts, phosphates, proteins and everything else typically has a counterpart that uses those items (just like the natural balance between animals and plants with oxygen and CO2). Additionally, you can add counteracting minerals versus doing a large water change.

I can't understand a 20-25% weekly water change.  Let's take this to a much more closed system - the fishtank aquarium.  It is not advised to change that much water at single point unless there is something significantly wrong.  Before beginning ponding, I've had aquariums since I was a little boy and, as long as you have a good balance in your tank, there is little reason to do water changes more than every couple of months - and that is usually only in conjunction with vacuuming up all the debris that has accumulated in the gravel at the bottom of the tank, changing filters, and so forth.

As it is, I sometimes go over a year without touching my aquariums with no ill-effects - no diseased, sick or dying fish, and crystal clear water.

I've taken the same approach with my ponds - though I do tend to them a bit more often to clear away leaves, plant matter, and account for evaporation and a small leak I have not been able to track down for the life of me.

No fish problems to date over the past 3 years.

Offline CT

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2007, 11:02:50 AM »
rcr,
  How big is your pond? What kind of filtration? I'm curious to know what works for you in your pond with your setup and what the quality is of the water is where you live, country well, or municipal water supply. What is your fish load? Do you have plants too? I would love to be able to not do water changes at all but the wind here is fairly constant and all kinds of things are constantly blown into the water even with a skimmer (no bottom drain :(. I have to deal with all kinds of additives, chloramines, as well as heavy metals and such in my municipal water supply and what is in it is not consistent from time to time. Many people especially beginners have poor filtration, are overstocked and they overfeed. Better in my opinion to do a water change than to kill fish. I'm not trying to be argumentative just trying to understand what works for you so I can learn and incorporate what works well if it's applicable to my situation.
Kay

Offline rcr203

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2007, 11:40:18 AM »
Right now I have about 200 gallons (roughly 4.5 ft diameter, 26/28 inch deep) that overflows into a stream about 20 inches wide and 11 feet long with a couple of waterfalls.  The stream ends up dumping into a hole about 4 feet diameter, 2 feet deep.

The end hole has a pump inside a sump bucket, that I've drilled numerous holes in along the sides.  Around the bucket sitting in the hole, I filled in and covered it with river rocks, larger at the bottom getting smaller towards the top.  The pump then goes back up and empties directly into the top pool.

Basically, the sump hole, with all the rocks, acts as some biological filtration, along with the stream and falls.

In the top pond, I have 3 comets about 4 inches.  They had two babies last year, about 2 inches now.  I also have 3 koi at about 5-6 inches (the koi is the reason for my latest project of a new pond that'll be about 1400 gallons).

Plant-wise, I usually have water hyacinths pretty well stocked by mid-may.  I also have 3 lilies, some canna, and some other bog-type plants in the streambeds.  Also, I have freshwater mussels (4 I think), a bunch of trapdoor snails, and I get some minnows when the water warms up from the pet shop (10 cent fish used as 'feeder fish' for Oscars and the like.  I had a couple golden minnows survive the winter this year, actually).  the minnows help control the bugs and smaller stuff.


Offline happyoutsidegirl

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2007, 09:29:38 PM »
rcr, I have a 4700 gal pond that's 16'x21' and a 12' 3 tier water falls. I would say my large skimmer and larger Bio Falls with a pump that puts threw about 4700 gph. I have ampel filtration and aireation. I have 10-- 10" to 15" koi 1 little fan tail shubmkin and a slug of baby Gf about 4" now that are all going to go. I realy don't think changing out my skimmer is hardly enough. And If you have R&G in the pond belive me the toxins do build up, and they will kill the fish given the wrong incadent.
I'm just happier outside!
 Debbie
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Offline happyoutsidegirl

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2007, 09:02:03 AM »
 :doh: ya know, I'm getting more seenile than I thought! :o It just accured to me that I devided and repotted lillies and added 4 new pots of em, pluss the two Lotus. I soaked them and packed them and topped them with sand and gravel but I'll bet some dirt still escapped????
I'm just happier outside!
 Debbie
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Offline rcr203

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2007, 10:22:19 AM »
What's R&G?

Offline Esther

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2007, 10:50:51 AM »
From my understanding, the clarity of the water has no bearing on the quality. It's us humans who want it to be crystal clear, me too. I see no harm with filtering the daylights out of it to remove as much crud as possible so that it at least looks clean. But I also understand the reasoning for the water changes and removal of decaying crud on the bottom. If we only top the pond off when the water evaporates, then eventually it will become thick with chemicals, minerals, nutrients, etc. The business of removing some of it and adding fresh dilutes that stuff and makes it a better environment for your fish. I am just lucky to have a bit of a leach all the time so am forced to add water every other day or so without actually having to pump water out. I know where the leach is and tried to fix it last summer but didn't leave the pump off long enough and the stuff didn't stick evidently because it is still wet there.

It is freezing outside right now and I have to bring in the hose after I add water so that the hose doesn't freeze. It is laying in the dining room right now.

« Last Edit: April 12, 2007, 10:58:51 AM by Esther »

Offline Jane

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2007, 04:48:39 PM »
Ok, I'll just throw in one more opinion.  I have 5,000 gal pond (well, 3 separate ponds but all integrated by way of waterfalls, lots of koi and gf (too many due to their romantic inclinations) and lots of pots of water plants.

I have never done a water change on purpose.  There seems to be the occasional water loss due to a rock that slipped and the liner fell down a bit, algae collecting on the veggie filter pond waterfall causing the  veggie filter to overflow a bit, well, the list of mishaps goes on and on.

I clean out my filter (a hugh pit with various types of filtration material) about once every 2 months and use a wet vac to suck out all the before I clean the filter material (pit is about 250 gal).

I then have to fill the filter pit with new water, so between the filling of the pit and filling for my mishaps I probably average 10% new water every month.

I've had the pond for about 6 years, never had a fish die except for the herons and egrets and one that decided to explore the filtration pit. :'(

Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe it just works for me.  :)

That's my 2 cents (about all I can afford).  ;D

Offline happyoutsidegirl

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2007, 05:09:41 PM »
Hi Jane, I kinda agree with you. I also muc vac off the bottom from time to time.
Esther, If you need to remove the crud on the bottom then a water change has to be drawn off the bottom No?
rcr, That is Rocks and Gravel in your pond.
I'm just happier outside!
 Debbie
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Offline rcr203

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2007, 06:43:57 AM »
Ah - rocks and gravel.  the rocks and gravel aren't actually in the pond, but are in the sump basin.  Probably not as fancy as biological filter balls and material, but the concept is the same.  As opposed to sitting on the bottom of a pond or streambed, where I agree they would collect dirt and debris (as does gravel in the bottom of an aquarium), the water falls over the top of the rocks from a waterfall at the end of the stream, down through the rocks to the bottom, where the pump is.

So, they're constantly being washed over, and should be fine hosts to beneficial bacteria.

Offline Esther

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2007, 07:38:04 AM »
I do not use a vacuum that removes water from the pond. Mine is just a spa cleaner and it has a silt bag that I use that is two knee hi panty hose for the crud and then it puts the water back in the pond. Mostly I just scoop it out. I'm not really concerned about the sand particles that help to disguise the black of the liner. But my pond is smallish and easily scooped or vacuumed.

Offline Koi Boi

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2007, 08:53:50 AM »
This may seem at first off subject but it isn't.  Anybody that has read any authoritative books on keeping aquariums or from years of experience can appreciate the value of the recommended 10 to 15/% weekly water change recommended in the books.  Following the advice in the books helps in many ways, not the least of which is saving you the 200 to 400 dollars it takes to buy a high quality test set to check for all the compounds  that  Bonnie has been making reference to.  Now if you consider that an aquarium is indoors and protected as opposed to a pond being virtually an unprotected outdoor aquarium.....well......you to the math.

I am no expert but I do know this, detritus will get in the pond in spite of your best efforts and it is the source of both  aerobic and anaerobic decomposition, which the former robs the pond of available D.O. to achieve its end and the latter produces hydrogen sulfide and other noxious elements to achieve its end.  Let  there be no mistake about it....clear water DOES NOT mean safe water.  Many harmful chemicals are clear and some odorless.  Clear water gives far too many pond keepers a false sense of security.  Before I could ever bring myself to be considered a “fish keeper“, I had to become proficient as a “water keeper” first and foremost.   So again the math is fairly easy for most folks.    8)


Paul   :)

 
« Last Edit: April 13, 2007, 09:27:51 AM by Koi Boi »

Offline CT

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2007, 09:05:19 AM »
Thanks Paul. Great explanation. :)

Offline Koi Boi

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2007, 09:29:46 AM »
Is it just me or does anyone else out there feel that the term NATURAL when used in reference to our backyard holes  for any other purpose than  related to how it looks, is wholly out of place?  ::)


Paul   :)

Offline CT

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2007, 09:49:36 AM »
I was wondering how natural mine could be when half of my marginals are tropical and the koi are imported from Japan  lol 

Offline Koi Boi

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2007, 10:03:18 AM »
 lol Good one Kay, though I was really  referring to the word as applied to water quality, I was, as you have so eloquently pointed out, remiss in excluding appearance. lol



Paul  :)

Offline CT

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2007, 10:21:35 AM »
Oh, water quality? I'll try to stay with the program ;)  ;D
Seriously, wouldn't it require a pretty large body of water for natural processes to occur without artificial assistance, aeration, filtration and such?

Offline Koi Boi

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2007, 11:06:29 AM »
Absolutely Kay,  even with mechanical and biological filtration in most ponds today, by the time most people have incorporated enough fish and plants to please their eyes, they have long since overburdened the bio.   People selling biofilters today rarely gage the filter size for a pond by the bioload it will be required to handle, but instead are gauging its size by the volume of the pond itself which usually leads to an undersized filter by the time the fish are purchased and grown out a few years.  I size my bio by the surface area in the bio and double it for the fish load that I expect to incorporate, mainly because I’m a bit excessive with my fish purchases.  sometimes I like to stack ‘em in like cord wood.... lol

Paul  :)

Offline CT

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #50 on: April 13, 2007, 12:00:08 PM »
Absolutely Kay,  even with mechanical and biological filtration in most ponds today, by the time most people have incorporated enough fish and plants to please their eyes, they have long since overburdened the bio.   People selling biofilters today rarely gage the filter size for a pond by the bioload it will be required to handle, but instead are gauging its size by the volume of the pond itself which usually leads to an undersized filter by the time the fish are purchased and grown out a few years.  I size my bio by the surface area in the bio and double it for the fish load that I expect to incorporate, mainly because I’m a bit excessive with my fish purchases.  sometimes I like to stack ‘em in like cord wood.... lol

Paul  :)

I agree totally. I never realized prior to buying my koi how big they can get. Stack em like cord wood? Too funny! lol Nice load of wood ya got there!  o(:-)

Offline happyoutsidegirl

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #51 on: April 13, 2007, 03:22:29 PM »
I do not use a vacuum that removes water from the pond. Mine is just a spa cleaner and it has a silt bag that I use that is two knee hi panty hose for the crud and then it puts the water back in the pond. Mostly I just scoop it out. I'm not really concerned about the sand particles that help to disguise the black of the liner. But my pond is smallish and easily scooped or vacuumed.
The inportant thing is Esther you understood my concept, verses just taking water off the top or out of the skimmer. Sounds like you got what it takes, and it probably works better than my stupid $69 dollar muck vac. Maybe Steve has some spare knee highs he can lend ya, lol
I'm just happier outside!
 Debbie
SunnyEastern Wa.
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Offline happyoutsidegirl

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #52 on: April 13, 2007, 03:36:07 PM »
Paul, lol could I get a cord of wood from you? Very nice looking fish, o(:-) and I agree with everything you said. I know that some people belive that clear water is good water therefore never testing it. I new I'd open a can of worms with this thread I just didn't know how big a can. It is good tho don't ya think to hear all the different openions? and yes Paul I think of natural to mostly the looks of the pond. but other than bacteria I don't add any other stuff to my pond so tha nature can try and take her naturial coarse. And when I have pea soup for what ever reason, or like now when it's a bit cloudy I help out buy cleanning my filter at least once a day and doing water changes off the bottom.
I'm just happier outside!
 Debbie
SunnyEastern Wa.
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Offline Koi Boi

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #53 on: April 13, 2007, 04:15:20 PM »
I don't mean to contribute to a can of worms, but since I don't know what you know, I'm compelled to risk being redundant in your eyes, plus I'm just not long on short answers. {:-P;;


Paul   :)

Offline happyoutsidegirl

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Re: Water Changing Question?
« Reply #54 on: April 13, 2007, 04:21:18 PM »
Contribuite away, My kids love wormes. ;D and I did ask! ;) Can you emagin how smart we would all be if we all knew what each other knew? OMG I just made myself dissy!  :D We wouldn't need each other! {nono} That would be so terriable.  :'(
I'm just happier outside!
 Debbie
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