Author Topic: poorer pond performance this year.... (Read 5246 times)

charlotteda · « **on:** August 27, 2006, 08:15:05 AM »

My pond/lilies and other plants have performed poorly this year in comparison with last year. I think this is my 4th summer with the main pond. I have done the same things as always with 2 exceptions....

1) string algea was rampant this spring - I mean pump clogging wild - I used hydrogen peroxide twice.

2) I added a pinch of potash early in the season..

I have had lily blooms but they have not seemed as generous as normal.. and my water hyacinths... usually I throw heaps in the compost bin but this year they have almost wasted away. (I gave my Mom some for her pond that is more shady and her's have done great).

We have had some really funky weather and extreme temps. I realize that water is constantly changing in spite of our interference.

Can anyone offer any comments on what might have been going on this year ?

thanks
charlotte

Reedman · « **Reply #1 on:** August 27, 2006, 08:45:48 AM »

I agree.

My pond doesn't have a string algae problem, but the high rainfall in June and the high temps in July kept the plants from really thriving.

Jerry · « **Reply #2 on:** August 27, 2006, 09:00:42 AM »

How did you use the peroxide and was it effective?

charlotteda · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2006, 09:09:18 AM »

I had resisted using it each year and the string normally cleared up on its own..

This spring however.. I had so much and late in the season too that I had to do something so I poored the "prescribed amt" (cant remember exactly how much) around the edge of the pond - about 4 days later I did it again... added extra spitters around the pond for a while. Yes.. it did seem to work very effectively.. I just dont like adding stuff unless it is absolutely necessary !

Jerry · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2006, 09:18:23 AM »

I only seem to get the string algea on the big rock waterfall. The rock is made of fiberglass.
Any tips?

andrew davis · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2006, 11:56:51 AM »

Charlotte, is by chance your pond in a full sun position?

The water hyacinth indicates your temps are at the limit to photosynthesise, either the heat, or the ph may be hostile, you may have a combination of problems emerging, high temps, ph drifting high, too much competition between crowded plants?

Here I saw Bagdad, Green Smoke, Al Greenberg, Pamela, Miami Rose, Gigantea among others more or less killed off in full sun ponds, while plantings in shade, part shade did a lot better

Most of the hardies seemed to 'cope' through July, some with less blooms, high nineties waters are pushing the limit for them

With temperatures cooling you will probably see the more robust plants perking up, at the expense of the less robust...

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

tammie · « **Reply #6 on:** August 27, 2006, 02:38:11 PM »

I think your problem was the Hydrogen Peroxide. It killed off the algea, right? Algea is a plant. I think it set your lilies back - not enough to kill them, but set them back. I noticed the same thing happen to some of my lilies the one time I tried the HP.
I have Bagdad, Green Smoke, Albert Greenberg, Miami Rose and Pamela. The only one I've noticed that gets a little upset with our heat is Green Smoke.
Tammie

CoolShades · « **Reply #7 on:** August 27, 2006, 03:12:02 PM »

Charlotte:

I suspect it's probably a combination of things, but I prefer not to add peroxide beacuse it does oxidize the plants too. If you remove the algae by hand, then by defintion you have removed the excess nutrients that feed the bloom. Perhaps a weekly 15 minutes in the pond would remove the algae.

Do you have leaves standing up? If they are, then you probably need to divide the lilies, which can stunt the blooming %.

Gary

andrew davis · « **Reply #8 on:** August 27, 2006, 06:59:11 PM »

Tammie,

It gets 15?f hotter in the Carolinas than Hawaii through July and August, factor in another 15?f where a pond is exposed to full sun, day in, day out... Locally roofers grumble about 160?f on exposed surfaces. tsk. da wimps

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

Craig · « **Reply #9 on:** August 27, 2006, 07:32:23 PM »

Once again Andrew, your statements are filled with inaccuracies. For starters, 'the Carolinas' do not have a uniform climate. I'm guessing there are at least two full zones of difference between, say Mt Pleasant S.C, and Raleigh N.C.

But the primary inaccuracy is that you are not 15 deg warmer than Tammie's area in HI....wanna guess? Try a July Diffence of 5 deg during the day, with the difference slipping to four by August. Thing is though, she is more than five deg warmer than you at night....so water temp-wise, it's a push, as I think they do have full sun available in HI, maybe of the more intense variety than the NC sun....so you full sun addition of 15 deg is also a wash.

Bottom line....seems you are still the only one with heat tolerance problems in tropicals compounded by a tendancy to hyperbole to prove an indefensible position.<g>

Craig

tammie · « **Reply #10 on:** August 27, 2006, 08:49:56 PM »

The entire last week the temps here (with the heat index) was 99* during the day... don't know what it was at night, not much better I can tell you that! I did check the water temp twice last week - 92* at 4PM. As a matter of fact I just was washing dishes (Yuk!!) and the water coming out of the tap was bath water warm. My pond water has never gone below 80*....
Just a little more useless info - most of my lilies are growing in 11" of water. Except for the ones in my "big" pond, and the pools with the lilies I baby sit for the winter - they're in 2-1/2' water - and I have blooms all year long. Not as many in the "winter" as in the "summer", but still blooms.
But, whatever. I still say the Hydrogen Peroxide played a factor with Charlotte's lilies... which is what this thread is about, right?
Tammie

tammie · « **Reply #11 on:** August 27, 2006, 08:51:25 PM »

Oh, my manners! Hi Craig!!
Tammie

andrew davis · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2006, 12:03:10 AM »

A factor in Charlotte's pond, is without doubt the effect of excessive temperatures, the numbers to look at are the HIGH temperatures

Hawaii record high temps do not go above 90?f through August.
The actual record high temperature range is 87?f to 88?f through August.

~ Historical data

Here, more or less middle of the Carolinas the record high temperature range is 95?f to 107?f through August (in the shade) local temps are capable of going much higher than that... e.g. 160?f on a roof...

~ Historical data

Bear in mind weather stats are based upon recording temperatures in the shade. Sunny sheltered locations are significantly hotter... I do believe Charlotte's pond gets some full sun, but is well planted (self shading to a degree)

The heat index does go beyond 120?f.

~ Local observation

Water temperatures in an exposed full sun unshaded pond can be dawdling between 95?f and 100?f... day, after day... it kills many tropical waterlilies. Maybe 90% when I tried twenty or so on full sun unshaded ponds through July. Only two thrived. Many just plain DIED, or were moved to shade just before they did. 20 or so hardies survived or thrived, with one having to be moved to shade (Laydeckeri lilacea)

~ Local observation

The difference between a pond in full sun all day and a pond in full shade, is typically 15?f.

~ Local observation

Lets compare sunshine, I have a sneaking suspicion, Hawaii has significantly more clouds... Which would indicate why drier places tend to have more volatile temperatures... little things like deserts. Less cloud cover... Hawaii averages 10 to 25 days of cloud through July, Arizona has 4 to 9, California 2 to 5. More opportunity to bake in the sun, quite often that heat that builds up over the continent drifts over the Carolinas through Summer

~ us.gov stats

Craig, your false statement is the 'inaccuracy'

HIGH temperatures in the Carolinas through July can be significantly higher than comparisons in Florida and Hawaii. For ponds exposed to full sun the difference is destructive, especially as many parts of America see significantly higher temperatures.

The bland advice to 'plant tropicals in full sun' is risky advice applied across many locations of America, a very inaccurate statement indeed.

Bottom line Craig, fickle plants for example tropical waterlilies do not cope with excessive temperatures over many parts of America. Charlotte has got hardies which are just about coping with one of the hotter Summers on record.

It is a good job she did not plant tropical waterlilies, as many of those, in full sun would probably be D-E-A-D by now

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

tammie · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2006, 09:26:03 AM »

I don't know if I can get this to copy here - it is from a weather station a private guy has set up. He lives about 3 miles away from me. What I have always noticed when listening to the weather man on TV is that he's usually wrong! I'm constantly asking the little man in the TV just where exactly he lives? He's just never right! Bet he gets his info from them national statistics...

Type High Low Average
Temperature 95.2 ?F / 35.1 ?C 0.0 ?F / -17.8 ?C 78.1 ?F / 25.6 ?C
Dew Point 76.2 ?F / 24.6 ?C 0.0 ?F / -17.8 ?C 69.0 ?F / 20.6 ?C
Humidity 95.0% 33.0% 73.4%
Wind Speed 12.0mph / 19.3km/h from the ENE - 0.0mph / 0.1km/h
Wind Gust 12.0mph / 19.3km/h from the ENE - -
Wind - - East
Pressure 30.20in / 1022.6hPa 29.91in / 1012.8hPa -
Precipitation 0.28in / 7.1mm

These stats were for the month of July - average temp 95.2 with 95% humidity. Kinda different from the "national" info.
Don't know if it makes a difference but my AC run more in September and October then in July and August. Probably because those are the months that we have "Kona" winds - hot winds from the south (just like California's Santa Ana winds) Makes it very miserable when you have 90* temps, 95% humidity and a hot wind blowing...
Still, I'll stay here. Our bugs are smaller then you guys have

And I still think the Hydrogen Peroxide was Charlottes problem.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Tammie

Johns · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2006, 09:39:57 AM »

Lord have mercy forgive me, for I am about to FLAME!.

Andrew, SHUT UP!!!

Why you insist on displaying your ignorance is beyond comprehension, especially when you dispute the opinion of one of, if not the most, foremost water lily experts in the world, Craig Presnell.

When you even suggest that TROPICAL water lilies suffer from too much heat I am at a loss for words, other than SHUT UP! You are embarrassing yourself!

BTW, my tropical water lilies have performed wonderfully this year and it is even hotter in Charlotte than in your locale! I don't know what you are doing to kill you own water lilies, but you need to determine what it is because it IS NOT THE WEATHER!!!!!!

Charlotteda,

Did you fertilize your water lilies this year? If not, that may well be the reason for their lesser performance! Also, as hydrogen peroxide only increases oxygen in the water, it is very unlikely that it would have affected your lily growth since over dosing would have killed all your fish long before affecting your water lilies.
Email me.

Oh, and BTW, ANDREW, SHUT UP!

What a doofus...

Joyce · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2006, 10:16:52 AM »

I'll 2nd, or is that 3rd, or 4th, your motion, Johns.

(And thank you very much for your 'motion'!

)

(Yes, it's beyond embarrassing at this point, is it dementia?)

charlotteda · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2006, 11:23:36 AM »

Lord have mercy...cant we play nicely

Yes Andrew....my pond is pretty much in full sun..though I do have enough lily pads to offer pretty good coverage..

This pond has mostly hardies with only a few tropicals Electra, Red Flare, Albert Greenburg.

I have given serious thought to the issue of temp as we had some record breaking temps here in upstate SC this July. I am not saying that is the cause of my less than perfect ponding year but it was one factor that was a bit different than last year.

As for the HP... I know it is not "supposed" to harm anything according to the general consencious in the ponding community. However... I agree with Tammie that I am feeling like it affected my plant life in a negative way.

Yes, Cool Shades :My lilies have been properly fertilized and divided this year and they are not as conspicously below performance as the hyacinths and the marginals..

I have one pot of miniature cattails in the other smaller pond that are about 24" tall and full of catkins. The ones in the main pond are about 9 inches tall and look awful. The hyacinths look so bad I am going to remove a few and put them in something on their own so I will have a couple to winter over.

I only used the HP when I felt the string algea was at risk of damaging my pump etc. Never had that much string before. But my fish load is very manageable thanks to the heron last fall. Again...high temps and the addition of HP seems to be the only "noticeable" thing "I" did different..

Johns · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2006, 12:34:39 PM »

Charlotte,

I did not see a response to my question re: fertilization. As to "why can't we play nicely", ask Andrew. I can tell you that I have been around on internet pond sites since 1998, and will be here as long as I can respond coherently ( I am 67 years old and realize my mortality) . I have been actively ponding for almost forty years and have made as many mistakes as one can in so many years, but I will never knowingly give "stupid" advice and if I do I will readily admit it. However, when I see obviously stupid advice given I simply must point it out.

Again, you simply WILL NOT negatively affect your water lily performance with the addition of hydrogen peroxide. Your fish will all die before your water lilies show any effect. Within 24 hours all hydrogen peroxide that you added regardless of amount will be gone.

As to Andrew, he has often given very good advice in the past, but he seems to believe that the results of one experiment without controls is reason enough to form a conclusion. Of course this is not the case. Scientific method requires control of all parameters and the ability replicate the experiment. In the case at question he has concluded the tropical water lilies suffer from too much heat. Think about the definition of ?tropical? and think again about Andrew?s conclusion. I humbly suggest that the real reason for Andrew?s crop failure may not have been weather related and that he should consider other possibilities.

Andrew, you are a smart fellow. I am certain that eventually you will discover the reason your lilies performed poorly. I am also certain that you will find that the weather was not the culprit. Keep on tryin?

Desertponder · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2006, 12:39:07 PM »

I have not had anywhere near the string algae this year but I can't really give you any idea why that might be. It just seems to be worse some times than others.
I have to agree with Johns on the HP. I've used it and never had it adversely affect my lilies or other plants.

Craig, Johns, Andrew........you need to take this out back and get it over with.

cfarm · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2006, 01:21:14 PM »

Quote from: andrew davis on August 28, 2006, 12:03:10 AM

~ Local observation

Water temperatures in an exposed full sun unshaded pond can be dawdling between 95?f and 100?f... day, after day... it kills many tropical waterlilies. Maybe 90% when I tried twenty or so on full sun unshaded ponds through July. Only two thrived. Many just plain DIED, or were moved to shade just before they did. 20 or so hardies survived or thrived, with one having to be moved to shade (Laydeckeri lilacea)

Still pond or with moving water? I'd like to see logged data for that because I don't think that's possible.

Quote

~ Local observation

The difference between a pond in full sun all day and a pond in full shade, is typically 15?f.

My pond is definitely what you would call "full sun". Probably 10-11 hrs worth this time of year and not a lick of shade because our home is fairly new construction. Put water in somewhere around July 7th or 8th and been heavily populating with lilies since, mostly tropicals. Here's our weather records for last month:

http://www.weather.com/weather/monthly/94514?month=-1

Check out our little weenie roast from around July 20th. Haven't lost a single lily and most have been "abused" by me repotting them twice in 6 weeks.

Sorry, but I have to think your problem is specific to your pond or maintenance habits. You talk about all of these folks who are losing tropicals left and right because of the heat. Do none of them access the Internet or pond related message boards? They seem mysteriously absent $:-\$ Hard to argue a scientific conclusion without a few more datapoints.

tammie · « **Reply #20 on:** August 28, 2006, 02:29:04 PM »

I've never disagreed with John... but I have to on the Hydrogen Peroxide. Only because I saw it with my own eyes. The HP didn't kill the lilies, just set them back. 2 identical in size ponds, both with string algae, one got HP the other didn't. In the one that HP was added the lilies didn't grow as well. Absolutely not a scientific experiment... Just my observations.
HP kills off the sting algae - string algae is a plant.
Oh, well. Just my 2 cents, and you get what you pay for.

John, I have learned so much from you thru the years... from filtering systems to heron sprayers! You're the bestest of the bestest, so don't get mad at me!

Tammie
P.S. - It's hotter then h**l here today! Lilies are fine...
Me

Craig · « **Reply #21 on:** August 28, 2006, 04:45:57 PM »

Thanks for the compliment John....but talk about hyperbole<g>. Thing is in this case, expertise isn't much required, it is common sense that commercial tropical lily growers are not going to set up operations in areas where the weather will kill 90% of their crop and almost without exception they are in places hotter for longer than the piedmont of NC.

Charlotte, I have to ask about your fertilizer....did you change regimen this year or is that also identical to last year? If you are using Osmocote, the release rate is directly dependent on water temp, so in a warmer summer, the nutrients will be depleted more quickly, even if you are using the same blend. The way you describe your hyacinths, it sounds as if they are hungry. But if you did change... good leaf growth without an abundance of flowers can indicate too much nitrogen and too little phosphate. I buy Osmocote buy the NPK rate, but I hear tell that in big box stores it is sold by the intended use...indoor plants, vegetables, etc. So it is possible you we sold one with a less than ideal NPK ratio for waterlilies.

Not sure if it is just a typo, but it has been appearing on a number of web sites...it is 'Albert Greenberg'. He was a pioneer in aquatic plant cultivation, for those interested in the man behind the name.

And Shanna...outback would be fine if what I know to be misleading information hadn't come in through the front. I just can't sit idly by for the sake of forum harmony and watch misinformation spread. This isn't Mr. Roger's Neighborhood, there are going to be disagreements.

Johns · « **Reply #22 on:** August 28, 2006, 05:13:35 PM »

Tammie,

Never mad at you or anyone else. As to your experiment with Peroxide, the problem as I see it is unknown parameters. I learned a long time ago that what seems to work once may not necessarily be bankable. For example, I have had two side by side unfiltered ponds used only for holding water lilies for sale. Same width, depth and length and same plants, and same number of small goldfish, in residence only to keep down mosquitoes. Some years one pool is crystal clear all summer long, while the other is pea soup green with planktonion algea. Then the next year the situation is reversed. The next year both ponds are clear,and the next both are green. Obviously there are differences going on between supposedly "identical" ponds. All I know for certain is "All ponds are different". Even those side by side...

cfarm · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2006, 05:24:09 PM »

Craig, apologies if it's already been answered, but what NPK do you prefer? I potted some lilies with Multicote and they did fantastic. Came back later and repotted some with Osmocote 19-6-12, but also a different soil and they don't bloom as well. Unfortunately the empty Multicote bottle is long gone. Course I've also salted the pond to .1% and turned on a turbulent waterfall, so I've done all sorts of changes and trying to pin it on one in particular

My college Science Professor would kick my arse for that methodology.

CoolShades · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2006, 07:03:02 PM »

Hey Craig are you sure about Albert Greenberg? I thought Dr. Birdsey (University of Miami) named it after Dr. Albert Greenberg (MD) an avid collector in Coral Gables. Perhaps I have my story mixed up.

Gary

LouAnn · « **Reply #25 on:** August 28, 2006, 08:01:58 PM »

I have hot sun, almost all pools are in sun all day long, and I tried HP in a few pools. I did not notice a difference. No pumps or waterfalls in any pools. But I do have Green Smoke go dormant on me. It does not like the high heat.

andrew davis · « **Reply #26 on:** August 28, 2006, 10:24:12 PM »

>but he seems to believe that the results of one experiment without controls is reason enough to form a conclusion.

Hardly one experiment, I made five ponds on ground I would consider very exposed, full sun. Some are one foot deep, some are four feet, one pond has a 12,000 gallons, one is 20'x4' with a North South orientation. Others have East West alignment

Different configurations to see how aquatic plants grow in conditions where crown rot is eliminated, curious to see if the growing season can be significantly extended, to answer little questions like, what effect does temperature stability and depth have on a hot pond, which trop lilies grow better tubers, produce better seed, what is their heat tolerance, how well do hardies cope. How well do lotus cope... Compared with a similar range of plants on clay ponds, lined ponds through part to full shade.

Some things I certainly notice. Like the variation of heat tolerance among the tropical waterlilies... Some turned out to be extremely unreliable shoddy plants, others, have proven to be superb impressive plants

Thumbs up to the likes of St. Louis Gold, Tina, Queen of Siam, Panama Pacific, Islamorada, Blue Star, Black Prince, Director Moore... they coped with the toughest heat, thrived in almost every configuration. Very robust

Some pleasant surprises this year, Gigantea and Miami Rose, fabulous when you have figured out their specific heat tolerance limitations... Absolute rubbish when you don't

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

andrew davis · « **Reply #27 on:** August 28, 2006, 11:54:17 PM »

>>When you even suggest that TROPICAL water lilies suffer from too much heat I am at a loss for words, other than SHUT UP! You are embarrassing yourself!

Johns,

Of course tropical waterlilies have heat limits. It turns out, they are by and large less robust than hardy waterlilies in conditions of excessive heat. Some, waaaaay less

I measured the excess temperatures, and saw the difference. Ponds where water hyacinth wither in the sun...

One pond over there, 20' by 15', 18" deep max, mainly hardies. All have intact lilypads, some are blooming. A St Louis gold is doing well, a Woods Blue Goddess is crumpling at a stunted size, what blooms it makes crumple in the heat. Pond has multiple pots of Lucida, Indiana, Hollandia, Perry's Baby Red, Georgia Peach, Arc-en-Ciel among others, none of them seem to be in any serious trouble

A pond over there, about ten feet away, 20'x8' depths to four feet deep (a design to see if depth improves temperature stability) all tropicals. Gigantea turned to mush. Miami Rose more or less mush. 6? pots of various tubers, starts, dead. Blue Star (?) is just about making a bud, the plant is stunted, small. Al Greenberg was evacuated to shadier waters, before it died completely. Still waiting to see if it recovers in a shaded position. 4 pots of Queen of Siam were doing well, thats about it. A big night bloom trop is moved into the pond, might as well turn it over to plants known to be more heat tolerant...

Another pond, only Tina, Woods White Knight, Mayla and Charlies Choice are left on that. The tropicals were moved out. A Gigantea died off. I might use that pond for sprouting batches of seed in future

Another full sun pond, Several pots of spares died off, Colorata lost all its foliage after starting out well. Bagdad, Green Smoke started well, turned to mush in the heat. Evacuated. Colorata in deeper water is still ticking over compared to the fried one in shallow water. Tina, Ruby, Director moore, Night bloomers doing well, a bit frayed compared to shadier positions

One of the days I'll go pull out the labels from the dead pots, buuuut, just maybe they might put out a bit of growth when it cools off some.

The water temperature, I could not tell if it is reading 99?f or 100?f some days. It did that day after day through July

Now, among the ponds that get deep to dappled shade for about half the day or more, eight or so. Everything leafed up and flowered. Most noticably two Gigantea... Hardy and tropical waterlilies, night and day bloomers, Lotus (known to be heat sensitive) Plants evacuated from hot positions recovered, still waiting on Bagdad, Green Smoke, Al Greenberg to flower: Laydackeri recovered (the one hardy to struggle in the heat) No signs of heat tolerance problems.

I made hot ponds in an exposed position to find out what would happen.

I sure found out what rubbish certain folk spout on the topic of tropical waterlilies

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

charlotteda · « **Reply #28 on:** August 29, 2006, 05:13:34 AM »

Re fertilization:

Yes.. I did use the same regimen as in previous years. I repot most of mine each spring and used osmocote per instructions from Craig in previous years. However, with very hot spring temps this year...the osmocote could have been used up quicker. And since I did not add anything additional until later in the season that might have contributed to a wane in the bloom season.

Most interestingly...something really did a number on my hyacinths and marginals this year as their performance was significantly below par. As Johns stated, I too have read that the HP should dissipate and not have any long term neg effects but like Tammie - I sure do want to blame it for something as it was the only "chemical" addition that I made.

Desertponder · « **Reply #29 on:** August 29, 2006, 03:02:45 PM »

Quote

And Shanna...outback would be fine if what I know to be misleading information hadn't come in through the front. I just can't sit idly by for the sake of forum harmony and watch misinformation spread. This isn't Mr. Roger's Neighborhood, there are going to be disagreements.

Craig.....I know. I was giving you guys a bad time more than anything.