Savio Filer and Falls

[saycheessee]

Can anyone tell me what media you use in your savio filters?  I have the standard green packing strap stuff that comes with my filter when you purchase it.... but it is not clearing my pond up.  Still dark green almost black.  Can't hardly see my fish at all.  I know it is deep like 3 feet but you can tell its still green.  I have the barley bales in it also.. but no help.  Would it help to put like the lava rocks in the filter where the green strap stuff is at or what would help to get it cleared up? :'(

[Bullfrog]

I just got back from a pond supply and that's the brand of waterfall and skimmer that they sell. It looked like a good setup, easy to clean but it sounds like you are not having a lot of luck so far. She had the green plastic ribbon that you put inside of the falls for a biofilter and said that it was easy to clean and lasted a lifetime.

I'd like to hear some more input also as I'm looking to purchase both the skimmer and the falls. Does anyone use a Savio pump?

[Bullfrog]

BTW, she also mentioned that she used lava rock and it worked great in the Savio filter, but took longer to clean. Perhaps the lava rock gives the bacteria a better medium to cling to and does a better job.

I'd rather spend two hours cleaning my biofilter medium once or twice a year and enjoy clearer water than to have an easy cleanout and green water.

[Rocmon]

Many people have lava rock because that's what the Aquascapes folks do. They build rock bottom ponds. Lava rock from what I've read clogs quickly and is heavy. I've read many people who got rid of the rock and did the springflow instead... there are many kinds of filtration material just like many kinds of filters. PVC ribbon, scrubber pads, floor scrubber pads, shotgun wads, and the media designed for such things, and so much more... I wouldn't do lava rock instead 

The Savio will depend on many factors as does any filtration set up. Volume of water flow rate, fish load, fish food, plants and fertilizer,etc....The standard skimmer in my opinion is not adequate for mechanical filtration. A plastic basket and a simple mat isn't enough IMHO. The Biofilter is small ~30 gallons or so. If you really want to hear bad news ask the same question at koiphen or koishack...

Your green water could be as simple as the fertilizer you used in your plants... If you have any. The barley bales are for the string algae, not the green water. Some folks will use quilt batting in their skimmer for a week or two having to rinse it many many times and replace it frequently to clear up their green water. Do you have a bottom drain? Maybe you have lots of glop in the bottom that needs to be removed? Maybe your over feeding your fish? Have to many koi? There are many causes for your problem but just saying what's wrong with my filtration will probably not find you a solution. Have you drained you biofilter? Did you rinse it with pond water? When did you change your pads last? Clean them with a hose?... I could go on and on.

I have that same set-up with minimal fish load, lots of plants and about 1200 gallons. I turn my water over 2-3 times an hour. I have a bottom drain as well (don't build pond without it). I have added six brushes and an extra piece of mat to just the skimmer to increase it's ability to filter. I have a plastic screen in front of the skimmer opening as well and a water plant pot over the BD. That's my mechanical. The biofilter I have added package strapping scraps other nylon mesh packaging, a roll of blue Matala an additional piece of generic mat in addition to the single roll of springflow.

I would build my pond different today if given the opportunity, but I work with what I have. A 100 gallon stock tank would be a much bigger biofilter than the Savio. The skimmer I'm not sure which way I'd go. The bottom drain I would definitely have a dedicated mechanical filter for, as well as a bigger BD and 4" pipe for it.

[Bullfrog]

Rocmon, Will I have to cut a hole in the liner for the bottm drain or can P just plumb it along the bottom and hide the plumbing with rocks?

[Rocmon]

If you haven't built the pond, or can drain and lift liner easily you really want to put the bottom drain under the liner. Gravity helps pull stuff to the drain. Otherwise your trying to lift gunk into the drain. If Your building a new pond put in an air line to the bottom drain as well. If your worried about cutting the liner that's natural but if you do it right shouldn't be a problem. There are many tutorials on how to install one.

Caveat; I have no idea what kind of pond your building. I have a water garden and really wish I had a better bottom drain. I lined mine with rocks and soon after learned that was a big mistake. It just depends on what you want. Many folks build ponds without a bottom drain and over stock them with koi...

If you haven't built yet, read a bunch—especially at places like koiphen about pond construction, and ask a lot of questions.

[Jonna]

OK, I put a bottom drain in the big pond I built but I was thinking of leaving it out on this small pond I'm re-doing.  It won't be deep and it won't be big, why would I really need one?  I'm serious. Wouldn't it be just as easy to vacuum it out with a wet dry vac occasionally?   This little pond is sandwiched between concrete patios so there isn't a lot of room to bring the drain up AND there isn't a good spot to hide the outflow either.  I had planned to just put a sunken skimmer with some media in it along the edge of the pond and hide that with a plant.   Also, what does an air line to the drain do?  It would seem that it would keep the water from flowing down it as easily or am I missing something??? Why air at a drain?

[Rocmon]

Would you want to clean your bathtub with a shop vac? I'd rather have a drain personally, but that's me. Although I spend many hours cleaning my pond constantly, I'd rather be lazy and let a BD do the work. I plumbed my BD with 2" pipe and a bunch of directional fittings—it doesn't flow much water, but I'm really glad I have one as minimal as it is. I hose brushes to clean the glop instead of having to get out a shop vac suck some water, toss it, and do it again, and again, and.... I did a very dumb pond build when I did mine, I'm just suggesting some of what I've read and learned since then. I would have saved many hours of cleaning labor had I done the BD properly. 

The air line is for an aerated bottom drain. The purpose is two fold, one it provides oxygen to the water, secondly the air rising from the bottom drain cover creates a water circulation that draws stuff right to the drain—water sweeps down the sides, along the bottom to the drain, and then rises. Many koi folks are really hung up on that one as a got to have. I don't have one, if I did, I would personally try using a water jet to create water circulation to the drain—I'd rather not have to buy extra equipment... If it didn't work I could use an air pump like everyone else—I don't have the airline so I can't do either. It's just really cheap to run the air line when you put in the bottom drain—maybe you'll never use it but for an extra $10 for pipe why not, the trench is already dug. The other additional costs would be the BD that is plumbed to do an air drain. If you get a good BD they are generally set-up for it.

Here's one aerated BD
http://www.koivillage.com/

[saycheessee]

I two have used lava rocks in the past and had great success with them. But I do agree they do take more to clean.d  

The Savio will depend on many factors as does any filtration set up. Volume of water flow rate, fish load, fish food, plants and fertilizer,etc.... The pump I have is has a ratio of 4200gph 1/2 hp .  I have 32 fish in my pond, I feed them two times a day.  One handful in the morning and again in the evening. Along with an occasional worm or two that we have found while we were building the surrounds of the pond.  I have several new lillies, lotus. A few other that I don't know what their names are right now.  (I can't remember in my old age)


The standard skimmer in my opinion is not adequate for mechanical filtration. A plastic basket and a simple mat isn't enough IMHO. The Biofilter is small ~30 gallons or so. If you really want to hear bad news ask the same question at koiphen or koishack...

Your green water could be as simple as the fertilizer you used in your plants...I haven't fertilized anything yet... just got them put in the pond. If you have any. The barley bales are for the string algae, not the green water. Some folks will use quilt batting in their skimmer for a week or two having to rinse it many many times and replace it frequently to clear up their green water. Do you have a bottom drain?Yes it was put in when the pond was built Maybe you have lots of glop in the bottom that needs to be removed? shouldn't be it's a new pond Maybe your over feeding your fish? 2 handfuls a day for 32 fish. Have to many koi? I don't believe I have too many.There are many causes for your problem but just saying what's wrong with my filtration will probably not find you a solution. Have you drained you biofilter?We clean the filter pads in the skimmer and the filter falls about everyday or every other day right now. Did you rinse it with pond water? When did you change your pads last? Clean them with a hose? Clean them with a hose and a brush to get the small twigs or what ever they are that are on the pads.. pieces or dirt or something.... I could go on and on.

I have that same set-up with minimal fish load, lots of plants and about 1200 gallons. I turn my water over 2-3 times an hour. I have a bottom drain as well (don't build pond without it). I have added six brushes Where did you get your brushes and extra mat???and an extra piece of mat to just the skimmer to increase it's ability to filter. I have a plastic screen (what type of plastic screen?  How did you attach it?  Can you show me with a picture?) in front of the skimmer opening as well and a water plant pot over the BD. That's my mechanical. The biofilter I have added package strapping scraps other nylon mesh packaging, a roll of blue Matala ?? What is Matala?? an additional piece of generic mat in addition to the single roll of springflow.

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[Rocmon]

Yikes! that's a big font...

OK, my limited knowledge would say eeeekkks! The biofilter takes approximately six weeks to cycle. DO NOT rinse your biofilter with a hose—are you on untreated well water? Chlorine will kill your biobugs. I use a bucket to scoop up some pond water, after I have drained the water from my biofilter—using the stock BD that is in it, I then will dump the pond water into the top of the biofilter and watch the color of the water coming out the drain. After several dumps the water is much cleaner—I'm done. Close it up and turn the pump back on. If your cleaning your biofilter every couple of days it's obviously getting to much yuk. You need to dramatically improve your mechanical filtration. Did they run the bottom drain to your skimmer, or do you have an additional filter for that?

It will take time for your pond to settle in. If it's brand new, the algae isn't even helping you yet. I had minimal fish and when the pond was cycling for the first time it started to get so green I could almost not see the bottom then bang it went away. I wasn't feeding the fish and I only had mosquito fish at the time. I've read conflicting views on water changes and new ponds but given the food and fish number you should probably be doing some of that—again I'm no expert and don't know koi but the folks at koiphen or koishack will be much more informative—even if all you do is search the old threads.

Your pump is costing you a lot of $$$ to run. Even without knowing at what head height your pump does 4200 gph at. A 1/2 hp pump takes a lot of juice to run. A 1/6 hp pump @221 watts/2.3 amps will push 4000 gph @ 3.5' head for comparable flow.

32 1" koi or 32 8" koi? There is a formula for number of inches of fish per 100's of gallons I don't know what it is—the koi folks at koiphen could tell you. Given you have koi I am guessing you are WAY under filtratrated. I've heard one koi for a thousand gallons—the local garden center here says 1 koi for 10 gallons so opinions differ immensely, but the folks at koiphen can guide you better than I. Also 3–4' is a minimum for koi.

You have about two hands full of glop per day coming out of your fish, not to mention the snails contribution—mine came uninvited with my new plants.

"The twigs or" is why I added brushes soon after building my pond. Your telling me you have one little mat for mechanical filtration for 32 koi? You have a roll of springflow and one scrawny mat for biofiltration... that's it? I don't expect the lava rock would help you for very long if you were to do that. You need to begin with a great deal more mechanical filtration IMHO.

The plastic screen in front of my skimmer is the old plastic rain gutter gaurd stuff they used to sell to keep debris from clogging up gutters. I have two of them. The bottom of my pond comes up to just below the front of my skimmer faceplate so one sits on the bottom the other rests on top of it and the water current helps hold them in place. Mine is essentially for catching all the algae that is constantly floating around.



14" Brushes in Savio: http://www.aquaticpondsupplies.com/brushes.htm
Matala I used a roll of blue: http://www.matalausa.com/
Extra Mat I got from a "local" koi shop—same stuff that comes in the Savio when new.

Instead of Matala you could use:
http://www.bettymills.com/shop/product/view/Premier/PAD235.html
or
http://www.shoplet.com/office/db/gFPAD1199.html
I can't tell you what color floor scrubber pads or size to get, I've never used them.

Here's a link to DIY filters at koiphen—you'll need to join to see pictures... also read through some of the construction threads
http://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51710
There's a section on bottom drains too, in that link.

Another great resource is a guy called gene at http://www.koivillage.com/ he also posts at koiphen...

[saycheessee]

The pond has been set up for about 3 months... but just now getting fish in it and landscaping around it.  We put everything in and started the filter and then let it sit. The fish come from another pond I had and just added a few after that.   The pump is a 1/6 hp.. my mistake... I thought it was 1/2 hp but I asked my hubby and he said... no no no... 1/6hp.

I'm going to pickup more mats today and also brushes.  I'll see how those work.  I didn't think it was enough.. but I was trusting savio... like a dummy

[Jonna]

Interesting reading, thanks for those links.  I may try adding air to the current bottom drain in the big pond, I do have air lines in the skippy but none in the pond itself other than the falls. 

I'm still not convinced about the small pond but if I can figure out how to put one in and route it somewhere for drainage and cleaning I will. I just don't think I will try and get it to return through the pump and filter.  Even in the big pond, I rarely use the bottom drain except when I am cleaning out the bottom and I am there to clean the filter a lot and watch it.  The rest of the time I use the side intake, safer as it won't drain the pond if something goes wrong and it doesn't clog up as quickly either.  Granted, I need more mechanical filtering on that pond especially before the pump.  All I have now is the prime pot and that is not enough.  I can't figure out how to get more mechanical before the pump though, the pump is not gravity fed so I'd have to do a lot of digging. 

We don't have a lot of leaves blowing around out in the desert and I don't find a lot of mulm in the bottom of the pond when I return.  I don't know why but I usually brush the bottom to the bottom drain twice a year and the rest of the year it stays pretty clean, less than an inch of debris.   

[lorraine1960]

U KNOW U CAN GO TO THE DOLLAR STORE AND BUY A WHOLE BUNCH OF THE GREEN SCRUBBERS AND PUT THEM IN THE FILTER AND THAT WORKS GOOD.....LORRAINE....CHEAP ALSO...........  I  USE WASHABLE AIR CONDITION FILTER ...I CAN CUT IT THE SIZE I WANT AND ITS COURSE....I GET IT AT WALMART....

[frloplady]

Lava rock can work well.  Cleaning twice a year is not adequate however.  I see what it can collect in a weeks time..to think of the water going through that crud for a couple of months... ugh...

I have 1 lava rock upflow filter.  It's only a 10 gallon rubbermaid.  I have to use 2 laundry bags to hold just the bit for that small filter.  I pull them out of the tub completely to clean.  I'm no 90lb weakling, but pulling those bags out to clean them is a pain.  The rock will NOT get clean just by hosing them down in the filter.  I pulled apart the filter once right after a "thorough" cleaning.  What was still in there was gross.  To think of trying to clean anything larger than this is not my idea of fun.

I have a 50 gallon barrel filter that I used shower scrubbies for the bio material.  I think they clean easier than the pot/pan scrubbies.  It maintains my quarantine tank with a dozen fish including 1 18" koi for right now.  And the water is green.  It's in a hoop house in full sun.

Green water..get a uv light.  A shallow pond in full sun will have struggles to keep clear, not saying it can't be..it's just harder.  Green water is not bad water..we just can't see the fish.  Why do we have fish?  so we can see them.

[frloplady]

OK, I put a bottom drain in the big pond I built but I was thinking of leaving it out on this small pond I'm re-doing.  It won't be deep and it won't be big, why would I really need one?  I'm serious. Wouldn't it be just as easy to vacuum it out with a wet dry vac occasionally?   This little pond is sandwiched between concrete patios so there isn't a lot of room to bring the drain up AND there isn't a good spot to hide the outflow either.  I had planned to just put a sunken skimmer with some media in it along the edge of the pond and hide that with a plant.   Also, what does an air line to the drain do?  It would seem that it would keep the water from flowing down it as easily or am I missing something??? Why air at a drain?

I would not ever have any size pond without a bottom drain. If you like the extra work to vac the pond out.  I'm to short on time to need another job to do.  I even have 2 drains in my 100 gallon stock tank quarantine tank.  I figure out THAT was a bit overkill    I do have 2 on my 300 gallon q-tank and it keeps the bottom of it clean.

Air on the top of a bottom drain will cause a current that pulls the gunk TO the drain.    I'm not sure I'd put air on a bottom drain in a small pond (how small?)  for plants as many plants don't care for that much current.  The fish do enjoy it though!  I bought a infrared zapper thing that I can put plug my air pump into and use the zapper thing to turn it off when I want to sit and watch the fish.  I know of others that put it on a timer so it only runs at night.  The extra O2 is very healthy for the fish.

Mary