sick fish issue... any truth to this old ponding tale by chance Pictures added

[tinkster]

WHen I first starting ponding I read somewhere, cant remember now that when you topped off your water not to treat it.  IT was also suggested by any ponding book or store at that time That small amounts of chlorine helped the pond with bad bacteria/parasites etc that was bad for the fish.  I had my small pond for 7 years and had a variety of goldfish and two koi that got so huge that I had to take them to a city pond.  I never lost a fish other than to a dog/cat prediator. It was a ponding nightmare, overstocked, no filter, no partial water changes,  had small waterfall for aireation. lillies but I never did anythign to it.. it had 5 inches of solid packed sludge/mud on the bottom when I drained it to switch to the big pond, yet the fish were big, beautiful and never sick. 

When I opened my new pond I did the same there and just topped it off with water from the hose.. things where smooth.  Then I got to reading on here never add water without the dechlorinator etc.  Soooo I started doing that late last year and this year everytime I add or do a partial change I add the dechlor.  I have lost all my original big goldfish in the big pond which I was blamming on the injured fish in the lilly bags and now two of my 3 big koi have what I am positive  is the start of ulcers.  The small lilly pond that is way overstocked with goldfish and some of the fish that were also trapped in the lilly bag with no fins or tails left but totally find now and it gets topped off with just chlorine water and is perfect.  My big pond well I am wondering if the small amounts of chlorine do help.. anybody else have any thoughts on this..

I am gonna lose these fish I am sure   I cant catch them and if I did so many different treatments I wouldnd know which to use.    I am almost tempted to drain about 25% of it and toss in chlorinated water. 

tinkster

[karen J]

Tinkster, First, I'm sorry you've lost fish. Second, sorry for the rant...

I have become very opinionated on this topic, and suspicious of many pond/koi practices. I truly believe that all animal immune systems function best when allowed to mature and adapt to local conditions. When any animal (including human) is brought up in "sterile" conditions, their immune system is completely lost. In other words, we animals need dirty conditions in order to develop our immunity.
I have purchased many Koi that had zero immunity. It's a long haul.

What that means is that only dangerous things can prop up a fishes immunity. Expose a young fish (koi, goldfish, etc) to all the natural pathogenic bacteria that come from decaying plants, fish, parasites, etc. And their bodies will learn how to fend off those pathogens when fed a natural diet. Keep a fish in "sterile", superfiltered, unplanted, clean water, with unnatural diet? They get sick. EVERY time.

Same as humans. Our obsession with a clean house, clean toilet, clean food, clean countertop, antibacterial cleaners,... has led to an epidemic of allergies, immune disorders, autoimmune disorders, staph infections, etc.

In any natural ecosystem, the good bacteria compete with the bad bacteria, and immune systems react and develop. In systems comandeered by people, the good bacteria and bad bacteria are obliterated... leaving only the superbug bad stuff.

Then again, you might just be overstocked.   

If you can't catch them for an accurate diagnosis, then definitely go ahead with the clhorinated water. Not too much at a time. Aerate the water well.

[tinkster]

karen!  I love the rant.. its kind of almost what I Think but not really sure I do either... I do know I have this nagging thing that I had 7 years of no problems pretty fish and most important healthy ones and now I got sickuns

They do originate in stagnent mud bottom ponds no??

tinkster

[karen J]

I guess so... it's really amazing that they survive in the first place.

Kinda like how I view me.. what doesn't kill me, makes me stronger. 

Really, though, I'm sorry about your fish.

[tinkster]

THanks much!  I guess where I got sidetracked is my love of ponding has always been a gardening aspect.. I had my goldfish a few kios one time but I loved the plants and then I got taken up with the big beautiful butterfly koi's...... so I guess if I cant save these, I will go back to my small feeder goldfish to start with and let them do whatever where I dont have to constantly worry about everything being so perfect.

tinkster

[Jonna]

Oh Tink, I'm so sorry.  I agree with Karen, we overprotect ourselves and our kids and we are weaker for it. 

Maybe just add some salt and use the chlorinated water and see what happens. 

[frloplady]

They do originate in stagnent mud bottom ponds no??

tinkster

yeah..but with a couple thousand gallons more than our ponds. 

[Kittyzee]

Tink, for what it's worth, I agree with Karen too.  We get way too fussy with our ponds and forget what they were originally put in for, relaxation and enjoyment..

[perplexed ponder]

Tink-
Sorry about your fish!
I must agree too. I usually add tap water from the hose without dechlor for top offs. If I do a big water change I add SOME dechlor, not usually as much as it calls for on the bottle. Just kinda toss some in.  We're on community water here so I dont' think our chlorine levels are as high as city water anyways, but I haven't had sick fish either.

Adding pond salt should help to kick up thier slime coat which may help them too, that was a good suggestion. I don't think it can hurt anything is you don't add too much.

I had a koi scrape off scales last year and he healed up fine.

[karen J]

Kittyzee, slightly off topic, but did you know that kids raised on farms have better immune systems than the rest of us?  It's true!

A quote from my favorite Dr about kids dropping food on the floor:
"If you notice this grandfather watching, just roll the dropped cookie around it the dirt a little before you give it to the kid."

 

[karen J]

Tinkster, Can you tell a bit more about this? How many koi? How big is the pond? Is it really dirty? Are you sure you can't catch them?

[tinkster]

THe pond is 16 x 9 ft ISH.  The water was tested two days ago at petland and not a trace of anything in it. She said perfect water in everyway.  nitrates etc all zero. no amonia. etc.    I have 3 koi which are 12" or so.  I have 4 smaller goldfish left in there.. one buy one they are all getting these body sores and eventually swell up and die.  There is no muck in the bottom, no leaves but a very fine layer of sand I need to vac up.  I have the muck vac that should be delivered today.

I have done the waterchanges twice now.  I did a really drastic one when I started the pond up to lower the water low enuff to catch all the other sick fish.  so no doubt I am not overstocked, nor do I have dirty water, and it tested perfectly clean so I have to be dealing with parasites.

As far as catching them, I have alot of rocks/rock island and hideways.  I was thinking about getting a big dipper net like fishermen use and try to trap them that way but I am so sure the stress will do alot of damamge also.    FIgure when I use the muck vac I will take the water  down pretty low where I can confine them more to the middle of the pond in the deeper water.    Not sure what to do with them once I catch them though. 

If I use salt in the whole pond, how much can I do without killing plants?  an ideas on that? and at this point would salt even kill the parasites.  Wondering if the cholorene in small amounts would.

tinkster

[El Jefe]

It really sounds like a parasite to me, Any chance you could feed them and get a picture or two?
Andy

[tinkster]

you can see the small white spot on top of the orange and black koi.  it looks like it has a ring of red around it.  The big white koi has a place on the side of his tail that looks like something is eating into it.  No red yet.  The smaller white goldish has a big ulcer type red blood spot.  This has been what happened to other goldfish.  It starts as small holes and gets bigger till they die.

[Koi Boi]

There is absolutely nothing natural about Koi  or fancy goldfish!  They are bred for their recessive genes to get the colors, body shapes and fin formations that tend to delight us.  Inbreeding is the primary method of attaining these recessive traits.  Anyone familiar with nature knows that when inbreeding occurs in nature, immune systems are compromised, growth rates are affected and deformity is common, leaving the organism wide open to disease and predation.  If  a large pond is left to its natural tendencies for a few generations of fish, there will either be no fish in the pond or they will be predominantly green or black and the cute traits and colors we bought them for will be lost to the effects of dominant genes lending themselves to survival.  Now as to detritus in the bottom of small ponds, if left to their own devices, the water will become brackish as  the organic matter builds and anaerobic decomposition increases, thus only plants and animals that can survive those conditions will be found, and I might add, that native fish in a lake or pond will feed and forage brackish water but do not reside there as general rule.  Pardon me for being tedious or guilty of offering any unwanted rocket science but this forum seems to be in dire  need of it sometimes.  Oh yes Tink, ulcers from bacterial infections are always secondary infections.  The primary causes are parasites, injury from flashing (also caused by parasitic annoyance) and injury from spawning.
P.S. Any gill tissue damaged by chlorine will not regrow!

Paul

[tinkster]

hey there koi boy!  Havent seen you in a while.. you know this is alot your fault.. you turned me onto the beuatiful butterfly koi's

Okay so adding chlorine is not gonna help... Should I Treat the whole pond for parasites or try to lower the level and catch them with a big net much to their stress ???? and treat that way.  I am not sure I can catch them without doing big damage but also have plants I dont want to add salt to if its gonna kill them

tinkster

[karen J]

Tinkster,
KoiBoi is correct- ulcers are secondary.

How eerie is this... I have a very similar fish:



When I brought this guy home, by the next day he developed an ulcer in the same spot as yours.


I kept him in the Q tank and treated him with debride. When I scoped him, it turned out that he was infested with Costia, but not the nasty strain. I treated that with Proform C. You can probably see the scar on his head.

KoiBoy, I don't believe I ever said that Koi or Goldfish existed in nature as they exist in the breeder's tank.

"the water will become brackish as  the organic matter builds and anaerobic decomposition increases"

Yes, forums often need rocket science, but a dictionary works too.

Brackish- adj. 1. Containing some salt : BRINY 2. Distasteful

[Kittyzee]

Karen-off topic, no I didn't know that but it doesn't surprise me...we're barefoot a lot where animals poop, scratched and poked, bruised.  We wash, through a little disinfectant on it if we have it, bandaids until they fall or are worked off, until next time.  We eat stuff we haven't washed out of the garden    yes there may even be cow poo in that dirt too  

Tink,
I'm sorry about your fish.  I don't know much about fish diseases, mine haven't been sick.  I've only goldfish, no koi.  I don't want to spend that much on fish I could lose and my pond's just not big enough.  

[cindy]

Tinkster, you need to add declor when you do top offs.  Our water company here in Louisville are using Chloramines with is chlorine and ammonia.

My guess is parasites if your water tested out fine.  2 different drugs needed for total treatment.

Proform C which is formalin and malachite green, will wipe out everything except flukes which are little worms that you can't see that attach to the kois skin and gills leaving them open to ulcers.

The treatment for flukes is Praziquantel.  If you just had koi, you could use Supaverm but Supaverm kills goldfish.

Pretty simple. 

Day 1 you do a good water change and add your dose of proform c.
Day 2 - partial water change and add next dose of proform c
Day 3 - partial water change and you mix your prazi and proform together and put in the pond and leave for 7 days.

If the ulcers are open, you need to treat.
You can take a swab and iodine and clean the sore, then seal with denture powder for a water tight seal.

If you need to knock the fish out, get some oil of cloves oil and use 12 drops to a gallon of water.Mix well.  Use enough water to cover the gills and wait til the fish goes belly up.  Lay the fish on a wet towel or a plastic bag and treat.  When you finish, put him in to a container of fresh water till he wakes up and then back in the pond.

If possible when you order the proform and prazi, get some tricide neo.  Its a powder antibiotic that can be used as a spray or a paste or a dip.

[tinkster]

THanks cindi... I am trying to locate that stuff right now. . Just returned from a pond /fishing bait shiop I didnt know we have in the area and he told me he dont have the perform but that HD and possible ace hardware might as we have alot of wells in the area and they use it for something to do with that and thats its much cheaper than buying on line..

I guess I am hesitating the most cause Im so leary of the stress it will cause them in catching them and reading so many stories that once you remove them they usually die
I guess I just keep hoping the water is so good and I am koi claying every other day that it will magically heal itself ......

My muck vac just came so soon as I can find the chemicals, I can start to lower the water to just the deep part in the middle that is more "rock" free so maybe I can catch them without to sure death.

Karen.. that is to weird.. he does look exactly like mine!!  I think yours is a bit bigger though.

tinkster

[cindy]

You'll probably have to get the proform c and prazi from an online koi place.  I buy mine on line.  Pondrx.com has too.

I pulled 2 fish last night, knocked them out (4th time for one of them).  Stresses me more than them.

Oil of cloves you can get at the drug store or health food store.  Used to be used for toothaches.

Salt.   Doesn't do alot anymore.  Everything is resistant.

If you need help when you get the stuff, hollar at me.

[tinkster]

thanks I will certainly take you up on that help bit.. I really have never touched a fish   I can see it jumping and I would jump.  I got me some rubber gloves today though so that part I am ready for.

Any tips on how you catch yours without killing them??

tinkster

[Koi Boi]

Excuse me Karen J, but I don't believe I ever said anything about y-o-u in my post.  But my post was in response to a-l-l the posts I read in this thread. but now that you mention it......I do have a dictionary that I do use and I don't feel compelled to use the broader and more popular definitions. We in this alkaline soil and alkaline water here in hicksville sometimes refer to distasteful or undesirable water for fish to live in as brackish.  But now that you have bought it to my attention, irony of ironies, brackish can apply to people too! 

[Koi Boi]

Yo Tink,  Paracide Green and Pro Form C are nothing more than a mixture of malachite green and formalin.  I learned in '93' how to mix my own and have been using it as needed to this day.  The catalog that I used to order my malachite from described the mixture as being effective on Dactylogyrus (gill flukes), Gyrodactylus (skin flukes), Ich (Ichthyophthirius), Chilodonella, Costia, Trichodina,  and fish fungus Saprolegnia.  All of these parasites penetrate the skin and cause initial discomfort for the fish which results in a behavior called flashing ( their method of scratching by rubbing against objects in the pond or even wrinkles in the pond liner) or the fish may frequently jump in effort to clear its gills just to name a couple of early warnings the fish will give you to let you know things aren’t quite right.  Of the two types of commercial mix available I prefer the Parricide Green. I think it’s stronger.  Follow the directions on whichever you use then wait a week and do it again if the behavior continues.  I have had to make several treatments a few times in the past in order to conquer stubborn cases.  If you fear your bio will be compromised, then keep a supply of liquid or dry microbial clarifier or digester handy to reseed your beneficial bacteria, I tend to prefer the dry types and Winston makes one about as good as any.  This has worked for me for years as it did for a couple of Japanese folks before showing me.  You treat early and when the fish tell you to and you can avoid a lot of problems.  With this treatment method you will not need to scrape and do a microscopy because you will use the same product for all of the mentioned parasites and a couple that I can’t remember at this moment.  Just remember, watch the fish behavior and they will help you avoid a load of angst.  For treatment of open sores or ulcerations, I’ve had good results with oxolinic acid (Oxolium by Argent aids in granulating new flesh among other things), Lymnozyme, or a paste of potassium permanganate (a little pot. perm. powder, a drop or two of water to make the paste and a q-tip)  directly on the wound.  I know they are bath treatments but desperate times have caused me to take desperate measures in the past and applications of these products directly on the wound works great even if they can’t tell you that on the label.  Don’t apply them all at once alternate each day till new flesh begins to granulate, then the wound will look cleaner.  Soon we’ll start callin’ you Doc’ Tinkster.


Paul