Fish deaths and water quality levels and softener

[perplexed ponder]

For the past week/10 days I have been having the mules from last year's spawn dying off. One at a time, every day or two. Yesterday I got one that must have JUST died. It looked healthy, except that the gill looked like it was bleeding a little tiny bit. There's no flashing or scraping. Today I saw a mule gasping at the surface. I netted it and seperated it. Within an hour it was a goner. Same thing, a gill looked bloody. Everyone else looks o.k. so far it's just hte mules.  I did a water test and the KH and PH and hardness were all very high. Took some water and the dead fish to the pet shop and they tested too. The kh was high (forget the Number, sorry) and the ph was about 8.5-9. We have very hard water here and added a softener this winter. I've been adding alot of extra water since i added the second falls a couple weeks ago because there was a tiny leak. Do you think the softened water could effect the levels and be killing the fish? The pet shop fish guru seems to think it's very possible. Told me to bypass the system and do a really significant water change. He COULD have sold me any number of expensive treatments, but didn't think I was going to need them.
We've also had alot of rain the last week.

[luvmyasagis]

I am by far an expert in any of this but from reading up on the net, it could be signs of gill flukes and also khv. Flukes can be treated khv can't If there are any clubs in your area you might could contact them about doing a scope. You can type koi gill bleeding in the search it will help and you might want to use rubber gloves till you can find out more just to be safe. Maybe some one with more knowledge will post.

[perplexed ponder]

Tested again and Kh is 12, ph is 8, did 3 good sized water changes with water bypassing the softener. So maybe a 40-50% overall. I empty through the pressurized filter so it goes as low as the skimmer door.

I have 2 waterfalls and airstones running. Oxygenator plants too. Should be enough oxygen. I have about 25 fish. hard to count them, moving around like they do! Added a couple new fish, Memorial day, they are fine. The airstones are on the bottom of the pond. Maybe they are kicking up muck? maybe they should be moved up?

[perplexed ponder]

The fish didn't show any symptoms of KHV except the bleeding gills. The koi aren't effected (yet anyways) only the mules. So I am REALLY hoping it's not.

[cindy]

Hi, you shouldn't have any muck on the bottom.  Rock or liner bottom?  Would be a good idea to try to vacuum any thing they can stir up.

How many gallons do you have for 25 fish?  When you do water changes, do you have well water or tap water and are you adding declor?

Added a couple new fish, Memorial day, they are fine that might be your biggest clue.  Did you quarantine the fish or just add them to the pond? 

[Daisy]

I can't tell you what is wrong with your fish but I can tell you that I don't think the water softener has anything to do with it. We have a softener which runs to the water for our pond and we have never had a problem with it.  Sorry your losing your fishes. 

[Bartman]

Ditch the softener.  I don't know if that was the cause of your problem or not, but your KH and pH levels are fine.  I also have very hard water with ranges similar to yours.  No problems.  Your higher numbers should keep the pH very stable which is way better than hovering on a crash.

Bart

[perplexed ponder]

Sorry, we have 3500 gallons plus an additional 200 gallons that is connected but has no fish in it. have been adding Dechlor (tetra)

I didn't quarantine the fish (bracing for the storm!). I should set up a quarantine facility.

I did change food, but that shouldn't be a problem, should it? It's wardley total koi. Floating pellets. they are really hard.

local fish guru says that softener salt can have all kinds of additives and since you just dont' know what is in it, it's best to bypass it.

So far today we are o.k.

[karen J]

I agree that water softener salt can have additives, but it is generally 99% pure salt, of which very little actually gets into your system. I have measured salt levels extensively over the past 10 years, and have found that using softened water usually results in a .1% salt concentration in the pond (point one percent, or one part per thousand).

Softened water has no effect on KH. A high KH with a pH of 8 or even 9 shouldn't be a problem, healthwise.

You mentioned you had rain. Are the mules smaller than the Koi?

I tend to agree with luvmyasagis. Gill flukes or KHV.

Muck on bottom is not good, but don't think that one of the symptoms of Hydrogen Sulfide poisoning is gill bleeding. Necrotized gill tissue, maybe. Lots of parasites can hide in the muck, though.

However, it has been a long, long time since I've had any bleeding gill issues... could be missing something....

I hope you get to the bottom of it.

[tinkster]

Man it sure is frustrating when something is going on and you dont know what huh.. I lost a ton of the goldfish earlier this year and my big koi has spots and I did everything I coudl think of.  sure hope you find out what is going on! 

tinkster

[frloplady]

If you are using the 99% water softener salt there isn't a problem with using the softener.  There are high end koi keepers that use softeners and if it would affect the fish they wouldn't.  The salt is recommended as what to buy if salt is needed in a pond.

Do you know of anyone nearby that has a microscope?  Best way to see what is bugging a fish is to look for the bugs.

Costia is another possible problem but until you get a scraping you are shooting in the dark.  I don't think it's KHV as it hasn't affected the koi.  Why just the mules is interesting though.

and yes..you need a quarantine facility!  Consider it another goldie tank  (to keep the filters going)

Mary

[perplexed ponder]

It's nto just the mules anymore. I lost another baby from last year's batch this morning. this time a nice orange and white one.
This time no bleeding gills either, Looks like a healthy fish! eyes clear, you would SWEAR it was going to start flapping around any second!

I thought I'd take it to a pond store about an hour from here and see if they can tell me anything. I have it 'on ice" right now in the fridge. maybe other ponders around here are having similar issues, they may know.

We have an inexpensive microscope, what should I look for?

I was thinking about it too. We have had ALOT of birds (ducks, egrets, herons) and frogs here the past few weeks. A parasite could come in on a visitor, from anywhere.

[perplexed ponder]

O.K. took a "live" (dead by the time I got there) and the dead fish to a pond store. They looked at both. Wanted a live one because they said you can see evidence of the parasites ONLY when it's alive. Once it's dead the parasites have left. they could find nothing that would suggest bacterial, fungal or viral. No sores, no bleeding gills, no swollen areas. They look healthy, they're just dead! From my descriptions the best they can come up with is gill flukes. Have me treating for them. Well, I'm GOING to treat them if i can ever get them out of the D@#M$% pond! I'm draining and trying to net them for 2 hours! I finally gave up. I'll have to wait till most of the water is gone. by then I may as well clean everything up while it's empty. I'll be treating them in the seperate upper pond for 3 weeks. Then they can go back "home". What a pain! this is the first day I have actually had time to sit and enjoy the pond, but instead i get to do this all day. Of course DH has to work a 12 hour, so there is no help. It's just me.

[karen J]

It sounds like you have some reasonably responsible pond store people. Most employees would not recognize that a dead fish will not show any evidence of parasites because they've all abandoned the dead fish. What are they selling to you to treat the gill flukes?

Re: your microscope. Gill flukes are pretty easy to spot, even with a lousy microscope. Use a glass slide cover (be careful, they break easily), and scrape the fish right around the gill area. If you're good with your hands, you can get a scrape frim just inside the gill area. Then take the slide cover and plop it onto a slide. A drop of water helps but is not necessary. A more advanced option would be to snip a tiny piece of damaged gill tissue.

If there are gill flukes, you will definitely know when you look at that slide. Even at the lowest magnification (40X), they are huge! Nasty critters, they are. You will see them if they are there.

You are doing the right thing.  Good luck!

[frloplady]

Scrape everywhere as it could be skin flukes as well.  Right in the "armpit" on the pec fins, around the anal area.

The gill scrape is not easy and it will cause bleeding.  Better to do a snip by using clove oil to inactivate the fish.  8-10 drops per gallon.  Have to mix it well as it is an oil.  Put fish in the tub and one is begins to list see if it will let you pick it up.  Lay it on a damp towel and using a small very sharp scissors snip just a bit of an edge from the gills.

While you are at it check the gill color.  Should be a nice meaty red color and not streaked or gray looking.

Put the fish in a tub with clean water (same temp of course) with an airstone to recover for awhile (ok have the airstone hooked up to an air pump too)  and back into the pond it can go.

I actually knock the fish out any time I do a scrape as I can get a better scrape that way and the fish don't notice.  You can use a clean slide to do the scrape or the corner of a credit card will work.  People have come up with ingenious items to use to get a scrape from the fish.  I also use a bit of blue food coloring so I can see the bugz under the scope better.  Skin and gill flukes are very easy to see and identify.

http://www.sacramentokoi.com/SUBcategory.php?categoryKey=13&subCategoryKey=146&subCategoryName=Parasites%20and%20Treatment has some excellent information and pictures and video's of the bugs you'd be looking for.

Mary

[perplexed ponder]

Karen and Mary-
Thanks for the great info! I will try to get a scrape today and see if I can find anything.
Yesterday was horrible. I tried all day to catch those buggers. Couldn't get ONE with the net! It took FOREVER to drain the pond. My husband finally got home about 8pm and the poor guy was out there in his waders until almost 11. He got them since the water was pretty much gone by then.
There was a large amount of muck on the bottom which he removed as best as he could. There is still some left, but will be much better than before.
My poor lillies had to sit dry overnight. I have the hose running now and hopefully they will be in water again in a couple of hours.

The fish are all in the upper pond, about 180 gallons. Not very much space for about 20 fish. I need to get a net to cover it before I treat them so the dog can't drink out of it. The med is toxic, which makes me REALLY hesitant to use it. I think it's pimafix (?) it's still in the bag.

DH put the 2 tadpoles in there too. I hope they will be o.k , I'll never be able to catch them.