ferns in the sub tropical garden

[Cedric]

Cedric, the first time I stayed at my BIL's home in Yuen Long (New Territories, HK) I didn't listen to his advice to use the AC while sleeping because I didn't feel it was necessary.  It was a cool, less humid winter night.  Wrong!  Next morning I looked like I had the measles or something!  Now when I visit I always use the AC and for my own sanity I have my own bed netting to camouflage the bull's eye    I don't have this problem in Hong Kong Island.  Thank goodness!

Government spraying is more effective on Hong Kong Island, than in the rural parts. But Ades Aegypti, day time mosquito is found all over the territory, not possible to entirely eradicate it it seems.

I never sleep with the aircon on, it's the quickest way to get a summer flu. We also have some nasty strains of flu around, bird flu one of them. We don't get bitten inside as we have proper window screens, and use aircon during the day. But interestingly every time we have a guest they get bitten to pieces everywhere they go. Must be the strong difference in smell, fresh blood. I hardly get bitten at all now.

HK is absolutely nothing compared to Florida. I went water plant hunting in the swamps of the everglades. The mosquitoes are so bad the air is black with them. Once I was trying to get from my car to the lodge at dusk, a distance of about 100m, I sprinted. When I looked in the mirror after I closed the door my entire body and face (right through my clothes) had huge red blotches on it, like the pox. I couldn't even have dinner as I couldn't get to the restaurant, wasn't going to try that again. The bites went down fairly quickly with a bit of anti-histamine cream.

[Joyce]

I can't find my container right now cuz it is packed, but maybe they consider BT as an insecticidal toxin.
Toxin is a very misleading word to use here though.
BT(i) is bacteria. But I guess bacteria can be toxic.
There are no other ingredients in it besides the BT that kill 'insects', and BT(i) only kills aquatic Mosquito larva.
(the other ingredients are inert fillers)
It does not kill dragonfly larva, or Daphne, or other aquatic larva or insects. (these are all alive and well in my ponds and pond containers)
I think it 'may' kill the China Mark Moth worm that eats lily pads cuz I haven't had them since I started using Mosquito Bits.

I can promise you this, my cats, dogs fish, frogs, tadpoles, wild birds and an occasional raccoon drink from my pondsai and other container ponds.
NONE of my cats, or dog has had any toxic reaction.(2 of my cats are edlerly, in their teens, will die of old age, not from drinking BT) 
I am sure the manufacturer put that label on there to legally cover his azz too. They all do.
Besides, the diseases caused by Mosquitos are the real danger, not BT(i).

BT(i) is the ONLY product I endorse because I know it is both safe for the environment,
and safe for every living animal and insect besides the Mosquito and perhaps the China Mark Moth.

Meanwhile, I read here that many of you are spraying RoundUp and other weed killers all over the place (VERY toxic to the environment and seeps into the water),
spraying Raid and other horribly toxic insecticides inside and outside your house, but get concerned with BT(i). NFM! 

[Cedric]

Jim that's exactly the product we have here. I wouldn't advise anyone to use this with animals. Joyce they probably are covering their own arses just in case they kill someone. That's not good enough in my opinion, my dogs mean a lot to me. If its completely safe for dogs cats fish amphibians e.t.c then it must also be completely safe for me, no doubt about it.

Remember the whole DDT saga, the miracle insecticide that harms no one. Till all the baby birds began dropping out of their nests, it took awhile for it to settle in the food chain.

Yes bacteria can be extremely toxic and kill animals. Some are drug resistant too. So yes please tell us who manufactures yours as soon as you find it, it sounds like it may be a good alternative if you have animals or fish.

[Jerry]

Yes we have mosquitos, but nothing like in humid climates.  We don't have to cage our swimming pools here as they do in Florida.  Most of the standing water problems are man made

[LeeAnne151]

It says right on that label that it is safe for animal watering troughs and fish ponds.

I've used it in my ponds for ten years now and my cats, fish, birds and wildlife are fine. There are hundreds of treefrog tadpoles morphing every year and many aquatic insects in those ponds. It is only the mosquito larvae that die.

[Cedric]

It says right on that label that it is safe for animal watering troughs and fish ponds.

And right on that same label it says dangerous to humans??? With that rather mixed message, it's not trust worthy. I certainly will not use my dogs as guinea pigs, only to find their liver collapses when they are in old age.

[Jonna]

Cedric, I think you have been away from US lawyers for too long, damn near everything says unsafe for humans and if you read the warnings on aspirin you would never take it.  It's legalese, pure and simple.  You can believe it is real and if that's what you want to do then that's fine but those of us who are familiar with the CYA labeling of US products have to do a little more research and decide on our own.  My research has told me that BT is formulated for a specific type of insect and that it is harmless to everything else. Now, is it possible in some parallel universe that someone will have an ill effect and try and sue the manufacturers?  Absolutely.  Will they win?  Well, maybe.  It depends on who is on the jury and how good the lawyers are, it does not much depend on the science.   If you don't want to use it, that is fine but you are probably not going to convince an audience of mainly people from the USA that all labels on products are the God's truth and should be believed. 

[Joyce]

Amen ladies, AMEN! 

They should put that label on everything, even a container of salt, cuz after all, if you rubbed salt in a would it would hurt, or in your eyes,
and if you ate the whole 1# salt container, you'd probably die. Too much salt in your pond, your fish die, your plants die. Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, blah-blah-blah.

But then again, we are dealing with the use  of common sense and being responsible for ones own actions (IE: not suing others for your own stupid mistakes),
which seems to have been bred out of most humans.

The BT that is specific to Mosquitos is Bacillus thuringiensis v. israelensis, which can be shortened to BTi.

ANYone can do a google on Bacillus thuringiensis v. israelensis and learn more, use common sense and then be responsible.

Yet, some people like to be contrary no matter what, and I have learned, and are learning again, never to converse with these types.
It's just not worth my time. 

[Joyce]

OK, ONE MORE TRY!

Apparently it kills fungus gnat larva too. YAY! 

http://www.ghorganics.com/BTI_For_Fungus_Gnats.htm

SPECIFIC FACTS
http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/24d-captan/bt-ext.html

AMEN!

[Jerry]

LA TIMES this morning!

"Abondoned homes swimming pools a breeding ground for mosquitos!"
With all the foreclosures this may become a big problem!

[miguynmkoi]

Jerry they're also saying there is an increase of West Nile disease from mosquitoes this year.  I'll be out dunking donuts for sure. 

[Cedric]

Yet, some people like to be contrary no matter what, and I have learned, and are learning again, never to converse with these types.
It's just not worth my time. 

I beg your pardon? My animals are worth more than your petty little pride. I certainly will take labelling seriously. The fact that you don't in your litigious society in America does not mean the rest of the world should do the same. We tend to rely on labelling for the truth. Not our own pseudo science.

Besides this is what is called a discussion not an argument. If you cant do that in a civil mature way I suggest you don't participate.

By what you're saying we should all drink arsenic because it says unsafe for human consumption on the bottle???

Amen indeed.

Notice I don't need to shout to be heard?

[Sunbeam56]

Hey Cedric - back to the original photo that you posted?

Is that fern in the platycerium family? I notice the basal fronds are different than the longer ones...

I used to have a collection of platycerium (before I killed them all). I'm still very interested in them. Originally it was thought that there were only 18 species, and then the hobbyists realized that they cross pretty easily. So now there are hundreds of "varieties".
If your native is a species, its a pretty one.   

[Cedric]

Those are gorgeous. I love ferns. There are many native ferns in the Pacific Northwest though they don't look very tropical.

Here's another one of my favourites for a cold climate, Blechnum discolor from New Zealand. The fronds can get up to 90cm long with good conditions, and have a nice emerging leaf colour to boot.

[Cedric]

Hey Cedric - back to the original photo that you posted?

Is that fern in the platycerium family?

Sunbeam it's not a plateycerium as such . I have a few platycerium but this isn't one. This one is in the Drynaria genus Polypodiaceae family, grows in a huge rosette as the large thick golden haired rhizome clump. The basal fronds are different and persistent just like platycerium, aiding in leaf litter collection, that feeds the plant. It's a native species.  The polypodiaceae family indeed includes the somewhat different genus platycerium, well spotted.

[Cedric]

OK after doing a little research on Bt israelensis strain EC2215, specifically used to kill mosquitos, I come to the conclusion that it has not been fully tested sufficiently to be guaranteed safe on all wildlife this includes amphibians mammals birds and invertebrates. As such the labelling which I found worrying is in faact required by law on all products which use it. That includes "dunks" and sprays.

Labelling

Endangered Species

Currently, the Agency is developing a program ("The Endangered Species Protection Program") to identify all pesticides whose use may cause adverse impacts on endangered and threatened species and to implement mitigation measures that will eliminate the adverse impacts. The program would require use restrictions to protect endangered and threatened species at the county level. Consultations with the Fish and Wildlife Service may be necessary to assess risks to newly listed species or from proposed new uses. In the future, the Agency plans to publish a description of the Endangered Species Program in the Federal Register and have available voluntary county-specific bulletins. Because the Agency is taking this approach for protecting endangered and threatened species, it is not imposing label modifications at this time. Rather, any requirements for product use modifications will occur in the future under the Endangered Species Protection Program.

Required Environmental Hazards Statement on the End-Use Product Label

All end-use products formulated from Bt israelensis strain EG2215 will be required to have the following statement:

"Do not discharge effluent containing this product into lakes, streams, ponds, estuaries, oceans or public waters unless this product is specifically addressed in an NPDES permit. Do not discharge effluent containing this product to sewer systems without previously notifying the sewage treatment plant authority. For guidance, contact your State Water Board or Regional Office of the EPA."

Its up to you how you wish to use it. The problem is there are so many insects water or otherwise mammals and birds that haven't been tested that it's impossible to say with any degree of accuracy if its totally safe, hence the labelling law. it is moderately toxic to daphnia, one of the few water crustaceans tested.

To be safe I would personally only use it in places where I don't have fish, as this is unnecessary as they already eat the mosquitoes and also places where my animals cannot drink from.

My choice is not to use it all as I use small tropical fish in every water feature.

[Joyce]

Quote from one of my informative links, apparently overlooked...

What is Bacillus thuringiensis?

BT's are a biological pesticide that contain naturally occurring bacteria in different strains that target specific insects. BT's are not known to be toxic to animals, birds, humans, fish or beneficial insects. They do not persist in or contaminate the environment in any way. BT v. israelensis is required to have EPA warning and caution labels as is the requirement by law for ANY registered pesticide- whether they are considered acceptable for organic use, environmentally friendly or not.

(end quote)

BT has been used since 1961. 
It is NOT toxic to Daphnia because all my ponds and containers are infested with daphnia.

Amen. 

[Joyce]

Whoa!
How can you logically compare using BT to drinking arsenic?   
Can you find anywhere online (anywhere?) the same 'safe' info on arsenic?
Please show me so this comparison will make sense.

FACT: Arsenic is a well known deadly poison.

And you ask me to be civil, yet you make nasty comments such as 'my petty little pride'.
First of all, my pride never came into to this. Then you made snotty comments against America and its litigious society.
You should practice what you preached moments later after being nasty and putting me and America down:
'If you cant do that in a civil mature way I suggest you don't participate.'

An it harm none, do what ye will.... 

[Mikey]

All I know for certain is that I would only allow my child to drink water treated with mosquito dunks if that water was the only water available to drink.  I think most of us would agree on this.  Thus I understand why Cedric is concerned about the use of the product where his beloved pets are concerned.  That said, the thread has been most informative.

[Jonna]

Yes, really everyone should make up their own minds and do it after reading some of the great links posted here.  My only other thought is that whether you agree with the way the US civil law works or not, personally I don't, it's kind of irrelevant to the question.  If the stuff was labeled for sale in the US then you will need to take it with a grain or two of salt and do some research.  If it were labeled for use in Canada, Great Britain or Australia - the other largest english speaking areas - then you could perhaps (I don't know) take the label as being more accurate.  Whatever... this stuff was apparently labeled for sale in the USA.   I need to go find some down here so perhaps I can regale you all with the Spanish labels, or not.  It's quite possible that the only stuff I'll find was packaged in the US with a spanish label pasted over the original and generally consisting of just a translation.

[Mikey]

Jonna: I would think that you would have much more of a mosquito problem than we do here and therefore would have more products available to combat those pesky bugs.  Although I imagine that pond supply stores would not be as readily available.  When in Puerto Vallarta last week I was somewhat surprised at seeing so many familiar stores such as WallMart, Sams, KFC, McDonalds, Burger King etc.....

[Jonna]

Yes, we do have a large mosquito population.  There are a lot of things available down here that are no longer sold in the US for environmental reasons, most of the garden sprays and such that I grew up watching my mother use are still available here.  That's not really a good thing though so here one needs to do research as well and figure out if what the label says is just fine is really not.  Also, there are a lot of natural products that are used here but not available commercially or exported.  Sometimes they work very well and are the best solution. 

Most of the big international chain stores are here in Mexico, they were perhaps once American but now they have branches in other countries.  It depends how they are set up whether they have weak or strong ties to the original company in the US.  For instance, WalMart de Mexico is a Mexican company, its stock is sold on the Mexican stock exchange and internationally as well I think, the Walton family trust owns a large percentage of the stock as they do stock in the US WalMart but the 2 companies are managed separately.  They do carry most of the same items but their are differences.  It is also the largest private employer in Mexico.  They use the same business model of buying from suppliers that will give them special deals and in house branding on some things.  Other American chain stores are controlled from the US, and yet others are franchises that are locally owned.

We have Sear's but it is not part of Sears US, the Mexican one is owned by Carlos Slim who is now the richest man in the world, a Mexican of Lebanese descent who owns the phone company and a lot of other stuff.  Pier One is a section of Sear's down here.  We have CostCo, Sam's, CityClub, Radio Shack, Office Depot, Home Depot, I'm sure I'm forgetting some others. 

I have a mental list of US chain restaurants that I've only eaten in while in Mexico and never tried in the US.  Let's see, well... Hooters is one     Sirloin Stockade is another, Chili's, and I think Boston Market although I'm unsure if the Boston's I ate in here is the same as the one in the US.  We also have all the fast food places, McDonalds, Burger King, Starbucks, Dairy Queen, etc.  Shoot, you can buy Blue Bell ice cream and Haagen Daz if you want to spend the outrageous price.

What I think a lot of people in the US don't realize is that Mexico is not even considered a 3rd world country, it is developing yes.  It has areas of extreme poverty and areas of 1st world modern living.   Like in the US, there are very poor people, very disadvantaged people.  There is also a thriving middle class and an unbelievably wealthy and entitled upper class.  Class is much more a dominant force in Mexican culture than it is in US culture, at least it seems that way to me.  I think it is more possible to move between classes in the US and there is not the same sense of entitlement in the rich in the US.  I could be wrong though.   At any rate, if all you've seen are movies, vacation resorts or border towns then you will not have a clear picture of Mexico.  Similarly, if all you have seen are movies, Disneyworld or Las Vegas and border towns you will not have a clear picture of the US either. 

[Cedric]

Quite so Mikey. I wouldn't offer my child a glass of the stuff either, and that would be a direct result of reading the labelling. Why would I do any differently to my dogs?

Random facts: It's very closely related to and is found in the same location as lethal Anthrax and is known to mutate and also cause resistance in target species. Charming.

Ok that is a cheap shot scare tactic. Here to ensure a balanced view to the other links is an excellent link that might help you better make up your own mind, its from AgBioWorld. http://www.agbioworld.org/newsletter_wm/index.php?caseid=archive&newsid=798

Some choice excerpts.

"Few studies have been conducted on the chronic health effects,
carcinogenicity, or mutagenicity of B.t....."Carrie Swadener. Journal of Pesticide Reform, Volume 14, Number 3, Fall
Northwest Coalition for Alternatives to Pesticides, Eugene, OR.

In a purified form, some of the proteins produced by B.t. are acutely
>toxic to mammals.

 no good reason to use it
>indiscriminately.
 Its environmental and health effects as well as those of
>all other alternatives must be thoroughly considered before use. B.t.
>should be used only when necessary, and in the smallest quantities
>possible. It should always be used as part of a sustainable management
>program.

there is evidence suggesting that B.t. is not as benign
>as the manufacturers would like us to believe, and that care is warranted
>in its use.

The United States Environmental Protection
>Agency (EPA) requires no testing of B.t. for carcinogenicity,
>mutagenicity

In a purified form, B.t.i.'s endotoxin is clearly toxic to mammals. When
>the delta-endotoxin from B.t.i. was injected intravenously into mice, they
>exhibited rapid paralysis, followed by death within 12 hours. When the
>same dosage was injected under the skin of suckling mice, death occurred
>in 2-3 hours. The delta-endotoxin also caused destruction of rat, mouse,
>sheep, horse, and human red blood cells.19 When a small protein isolated
>from the endotoxin was administered to mice at sublethal levels, mice
>suffered from severe hypothermia and their heart beat slowed.20

e.t.c  e.t.c

Jonna that's exactly how it is here in China too. Though I would say wealth simply replaces class, a sort of "moneytocracy" much like the US of A and most of the New World.

[Joyce]

Mikey, I agree, I would definitely not allow Jamie to drink water with BT in it unless it was the only water available.
But she has been playing (for years) in the pondsai with her hands, and in the container ponds.
We all have...and my pets drink from it. Living proof that BT is harmless. 

By the way...
AgBioWorlds credibility is in serious question. 

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Anti-GM+scientists+face+widespread+assaults+on+credibility....-a091469741

And here AgBioWorld contradicts itself.
http://www.agbioworld.org/biotech-info/articles/biotech-art/safety-bt-cotton.html

Seems like there are quite a few shady characters working for AgBioWorld, with personal agendas.
And their reputation is quite left-wing because of their smear tactics, if not lies and deception.
Makes one not want to believe anything on their website.

http://ngin.tripod.com/deceit8.html

Yes, we can all make our own decisions.
No one is right or wrong for using or not using BT. 

There was no need to denigrate a person and their entire country.

[Cedric]

author=Joyce link=topic=5734.msg60160#msg60160 date=1211510312]
Mikey, I agree, I would definitely not allow Jamie to drink water with BT in it unless it was the only water available.
But she has been playing (for years) in the pondsai with her hands, and in the container ponds.
We all have...and my pets drink from it. Living proof that BT is harmless.
And their reputation is quite left-wing.........

You need a life time to prove anything, especially with the more insidious health risks like cancer, many others you wouldn't even know were implicated. Pleased to hear you are all so healthy. I wouldn't take any risks myself with that, but then I am speaking for myself.

Left wing? Wots your agenda prey tell? If anything that to me signifies a certain credibility.

I can't explain every word I use but look up "litigious", its not an insult, truly its not, not in the English language at least.

Have a super day Cedric