Snakes

[Cedric]

Same thing applies to Canada I should think. Or is it open season on wildlife there?  Yyour snakes are national monuments .
It really irritates me the way people will intentionally live in and invade bear country for example, then complain about bear nuisance, like the bears had any choice?
Hey I know what Im going to live in the heart of moose country then shoot em all dead if they bug me and mine.

[Derrick]

It is an unfortunate fact of life that an expanding human population is constantly encroaching on wild life. I don't kill anything for pleasure or enjoyment, but if I have to kill something for necessity I will.

What America does does not apply to Canada as far as laws or regulations go. So what Obama does about the gun laws there is of no consequence to us.

If you choose to take the moral high ground as for how animals/people are treated in a particular country, I think maybe you may want to reconsider your argument.

Just my opinion of course. 

Derrick

[LeeAnne151]

Obama is not going to stop anyone from shooting snakes, cats, dogs, hawks, herons or whatever is in their yard eating their whatever. It is probably already illegal.

Personally, I've never understood people who hate or fear snakes or spiders for that matter. Not when I was six and not now. My father and my grandmother were both terrified of them but my father built me a wood and screen terrarium to keep them in and never ever killed one (at least in front of me or that I know of)

 I also don't understand people who move into a wildlife area then complain about the wildlife or people who build shallow sloping ponds with no plants or hiding places at all with crystal clear water and then stock with fantails who can't swim worth a crap and then wonder why a heron or raccoon got them. Ponds like that are basically a feeding dish.

There used to be a forum member who trapped and drowned opossums because they were ugly. They just busted pigeon breeders here in Portland and California who were trapping and killing hawks because their breed flew about a well as a fantail can swim.

I do know that you can't change anyone's mind, especially when they are an adult though I think Steve Irwin did show a lot of children worldwide that snakes were cool.

I've lost plenty of fish to predation. It sucks. I've got an ugly electric fence around my fish pond and the raccoons have been in my containers and lily ponds constantly. A kingfisher or heron has taken all but three fish over the winter some were ten but I still would never sit out by my pond with a gun or kill anything caught in a net.

I love nature, it is why I have ponds.

[Derrick]

Not to keep an argument going (ok, must admit I do love a good debate!  ) but it seems to me some people don't mind killing unwanted frogs, ie. bullfrogs, (and calling it being euthenized  (sp) doesn't make the frog less dead) or snails that are eating their lilies and such, so I guess the question would be: is it ok to kill some things, but not others? Yes, most here say to relocate, but a quick look back through old posts shows that bullfrogs and snails take quite a beating! LOL.....so it's ok to freeze them, or otherwise do away with them, but not kill a snake?

For the record, I have never killed anything because of my pond, but that's just me and I would never tell others how to tend theirs.

[LeeAnne151]

I certainly think there are valid reason to kill animals and valid reasons not to.

Here in Oregon, one is encouraged to kill bullfrogs by wildlife conservation officials. It is open season on them year 'round for hunting/jigging whatever it is called for people who eat them. Ditto for AZ, CA, British Columbia, Hawaii and they are also a problem in many other countries. Tax dollars are spent on bullfrog control efforts in the Western US and Canada. There really isn't anything else to do with them here but kill them or lose all of our native frogs and turtles.

Cute little red eared sliders are also a problem in the Western US for native turtles and wildlife agencies are trying to cope with them too. People release them into any body of water they see and think it is ok. It isn't.

I do mention Bullfrogs being a problem on various message boards because I've read dozens of threads where ponders are shipping eggs and tadpoles across the country or buying them online from suppliers who should know better but don't. Not giving a rip whether or not they could be causing environmental harm. Every little bit helps. Herons can transfer eggs or even adults to wild bodies of water spreading them to areas that may not have them yet. We ponders should be aware that some of our beloved pond pets aren't so beloved everywhere.

However, If I lived in any part of the US where they were native, I would not kill any bullfrogs that showed up in my pond. If they started eating my fish, I'd relocate but I would not kill them. There is no reason to and nothing wrong with relocating.

 Many snakes are endangered or threatened. From habitat loss and because many people kill them on sight because they hate them or fear them. Many people probably get bit by poisonous snakes trying to kill them than if they would just leave them alone in the first place. You have to get pretty dang close to shovel them or whack them with anything....scary. 

Again, I know you can't change anyone's mind.

I have friends I've known most of my life who are afraid of spiders (but who love snakes) and who jump up and scream in public if they see one. I think it is ridiculous. They say they can't help it. Then they call me and want to know what bug spray to use in their yard because their plants are all chewed up. They send their boyfriends out to smash all the big garden spiders and then would rather use chemicals.... 

[Derrick]

To each their own. 

Derrick

[Cedric]

Good on you LeeAnn. I have great fondness for snakes, they play a pivotal role on my parents farm in Africa in keeping rat numbers down. We have through the years adopted a O tolerance to any staff who harm them or any other wildlife in any way.

We here in Hong Kong have a terrible problem with introduced toads and frogs, these as you say pose a danger to native wild life and must be controlled where and when ever possible.

I just hope more is being done to get the message out to city dwellers about the importance of animals of prey and other wildlife. Unfortunately so many of the TV documentaries are sensationalist nonsense playing on the size of teeth, jaw power and poison. This simply has the wrong effect.
So many city dwellers are now buying a little something in the countryside to live in and have no clue how to protect manage and sustain the environment. Children at schools should be taught the benefits of all these animals, like our parents might or might not have done, its the only way.

Meantime please please people relocate any animals that are causing you grief. There must be many specialist available in your areas that will come and take them away for you and set them free. It's not a brave thing to kill a snake it's an unintelligent thing to do. At worst you will bring a species closer to extinction at best you will be bitten for your troubles.

Cedric

[Derrick]

In the interests of maintaining civility I am going to ignore your patronizing tone and let this thread fade away. I think it is clear where we stand on the issue.

Derrick

[LeeAnne151]

Cedric, give it up. You won't change any of their minds.

Best thing to do is avoid any threads that mention snakes in the title but some times I just can't. Why should I? It is a free forum and I'm entitled to my opinion.

For all the years I've been ponding on the Internet those that kill or hate snakes out number those of us who like them by a huge margin.

Any time someone speaks up for snakes we are always the ones who are arguing or patronizing or invading their rights or should just let it be.

 The fact that they brag about killing snakes right and left and that it upsets us, some to the point of quitting the forum, doesn't matter. Seems killing snakes is fine and anyone asking them to have some tolerance is wrong.

Truthfully, I think they feel guilty or know what they are doing is wrong and they don't like to have it pointed out.

Many animals prey on our pond fish but snakes are killed in a much higher proportion to the amount of fish they take. Just because they are snakes.

[Jonna]

I'm sure you are right LeeAnn that of pond predators more snakes are killed than any other.  Partly though, that may be because it is easier to get them.  I know, I'd shoot a heron or a raccoon if I thought I could get away with it.  I don't mind handling snakes and some of them are really beautiful.  I would leave a snake alone if it didn't prey on anything I care about and wasn't poisonous to mammals.  I just have this protective thing about my house and yard.  Insects though, I have a big aversion to them.  I can't sleep if I know there is a spider in the room.  I used to dream about a huge vacuum that would suck all the spiders off the earth and put them on Mars, along with all the mosquitoes and ticks so they would have something to eat    Guess the Mars Rover wouldn't like that now. 

[LeeAnne151]

Don't you have big nasty roaches down there? I'd sleep with a spider any night of the week before a cockroach. 

I don't think anyone should sleep with snakes or spiders for that matter. I just wish people would take more precautions when building ponds and gardens with walls, depths, hiding places etc. Make the area less attractive to predators, easier for fish to hide. Use Great Stuff to fill in caves in rocks on outside of pond maybe, where snakes might hide. Maybe provide a bird bath on ground level at the edge of one's yard if they are after a drink rather than fish. The sound of our waterfalls carries so far. So many animals are losing habitat and they hear our waterfalls and they think it is OK for them to come.

Maybe look for ways to make pond and garden less snake friendly or make fence more secure rather than kill kill kill

My friend in Phoenix emailed me yesterday, she lives on some acreage outside of town. She was watching a lizard on a rock when a gopher snake popped up the other side of the rock and grabbed the lizard. She ran in to email me because though the lizard was cute, it was so cool to see nature in action.

[Derrick]

I actually have never killed anything near or around or because of my pond, and I can say I have never killed a snake in my life.

My point was simply that it is up to the individual as to how much they want to protect their pets, and someone who would kill a snake to protect them shouldn't be spoken to like they are the slow kid from down the street.

For the second time...'nuff said. 

[tammie]

We have big spiders and roaches too... and centipedes... and scorpions.  But we don't have any snakes!
Tammie

[LeeAnne151]

But you've got bullfrogs and cane toads  

Just pray that the brown tree snake from Guam doesn't make it in. I've seen them on TV patrolling the airport with beagles to sniff them out on planes from Guam. The brown tree snake has been an ecological disaster for Guam.

[Jonna]

Yeah, we've got roaches that fly and look like B52's, all the stuff Tammie mentioned and a lot of snakes, some poisonous and some not.  My friend across the road found a 6' boa in the closet the other night.  She had left a window open for her cat.  I know there are rattlesnakes as I was surprised  by that, also cottonmouths, coral snakes and a couple kinds of pit vipers.  Then there are tons of non-poisonous ones.  Some of the spiders here are poisonous as well and a lot of them are just huge and ugly.  At a certain time of the year, the tarantulas all come out looking for a mate and sometimes the back roads are so full of them that you drive over them and they scrunch... stuff of nightmares.  I had to come home and take a valium to sleep after that happened to us one night a few years ago.

Like I said, I'm a city girl.  I keep the exterminator's number in my speed dial. 

[LeeAnne151]

I lived in Phoenix for fifteen years and spent a lot of time camping, hiking, hanging out at rivers, horse riding in desert and never once saw a rattlesnake or coral snake. They mostly want to get away from people.

saw my first Gila monster a few years ago on vacation. Boy was that cool.

[Sandye]

At a certain time of the year, the tarantulas all come out looking for a mate and sometimes the back roads are so full of them that you drive over them and they scrunch... stuff of nightmares.  I had to come home and take a valium to sleep after that happened to us one night a few years ago.
 

Ewwwwwww, Jonna, they make horror movies like that! 

I'm not horribly afraid of snakes or spiders, but I don't want them in my house.  I would remove a snake, but I usually kill spiders I find in the house...especially brown recluse spiders.   

[Cedric]

But you've got bullfrogs and cane toads  

Just pray that the brown tree snake from Guam doesn't make it in. I've seen them on TV patrolling the airport with beagles to sniff them out on planes from Guam. The brown tree snake has been an ecological disaster for Guam.

Truly devastating on the natives bird and amphibian populations. I wonder where the brown snake comes from?
Our tricky customer, though it's native luckily for it, is the green tree pit viper, or Bamboo snake. One of the very few arboreal  pit viper species in the world. Very very common, and can give you a bad bite though very rarely causing death, much like the North American rattlers bite. Its tricky because it's a phlegmatic snake and wont slither away on your approach, an ambush hunter of birds and lizards etc.

When ever I spot one in the garden I remove it gently with a long long stick of thin bamboo with a clump of leaves at the end, gently putting it over the fence into the jungle. The reason I do this and not take it far away, is that snakes leave a trail for others of the same species to follow in breeding season. So if I removed it entirely from the area the snakes would all come into the garden looking for the trail it left. This happened before and i consulted the "snake man" and he gave me this tip.

[Jonna]

Gah! I went to look and see what kind of pit vipers we have, Bothrops asper called a Fer de Lance in English - nasty aggressive and cause of the largest number of snake bites in the Yucatan.  The other pit vipers around here are the Mexican Jumping Pit Viper Atropoides nummifer, Eyelash Palm Pit Viper Bothriechris schlegelii  which is really beautiful and comes in a lot of colors from bright yellow to pink, and the Rainforest Hognosed Pit Viper Porthidium nasutum.  Turns out the Cottonmouth is also a Pit Viper, ours is a Cantil or Agkistrodon bilineatus, I love the Wiki comment that the venom is considered "medically significant to humans"     The Coral snake is probably Micrurus nigrocinctus and it is the one with the most common look-alike, the Milk snake Lampropeltis triangulum.  The mnemonic for telling them apart is one I guess I should learn. 

Red next to black, is a friend of Jack; red next to yellow, will kill a fellow.

I am glad I looked at all these, not that I ever want to run into any of them.  I did see a dead Coral snake a while ago, one of the Mayan gardeners around here had killed it with his machete.  That's close enough for me. 

[Cedric]

The eyelash palm pit, looks very much like our bamboo snake, very beautiful, a jewel of a snake. We have banded kraits very poisonous, king cobra, monocled cobra, Chinese cobra, rat snakes, racers, red keel backs, saw viper, mountain hill viper, Burmese python...so many species in fact. Very lucky indeed.

Awhile ago there was a problem Burmese python it started to take peoples dogs off a hiking trail. One British expat lady had her lab swallowed when she went for her Sunday walk, she took a picture with her cell phone. Shame she was too terrified to try and stop it. Anyway it took about four other peoples dogs then vanished from the area luckily for it. People will let their dogs off the lead.

Here if the locals see a snake they are not afraid at all, and rather eagerly catch them for eating instead. Even though these reptiles are fully protected. It makes me see red.