Author Topic: What is inversion?  (Read 9971 times)

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Offline Rocmon

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2006, 09:05:11 PM »
Might the moderators consider removing the more banal comments from the obviously unprofessional and incompetent,
>>http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0008.html
This document features zero competence regarding major factors influencing water chemistry under ice.

Um... Your standing on a really high pedestal there aren't you? Have you written to professor Eric R. Norland, or professor William E. Lynch Jr. regarding their article? If so you may point out the few obvious typos in their web publication. Personally, I don't see why you place yourself so much higher than anyone else posting, or writing research findings, all I see is continuous arguments wherever you post. There might just be something there you can learn from. O0

I just finished reading the Ohio State article involving winter fish kills. I would assume that given they didn't make a big deal about water chemistry, that their research found it was not the determining factor, but that "Winterkill is the result of a significant decline in oxygen during a long period of ice cover." In fact all the articles listed by Mucky cited the same cause. In your defense I also noted that decomposing plant matter was also a relevant finding. They stated that large volumes of plant matter was a contributing factor that was present when the winter kills occured. They also contributed this to oxygen depletion as a result of the decomposition, not the by-products.

From my own experience I find that it's generally a good idea to have an open mind so that one can take in the data presented and make an intelligent conclusion. In some research articles I've seen the researchers find the results they want irrespective of the results found—because they already knew what they wanted to find. This occurs with some research when those paying for the research want a given conclusion to be found. Governments are big on this. Some just think they have the answer already, which makes me wonder why they bothered to do any research. All contradictory data is just not included in their conclusions.

This is a public forum and some people like to make light of some peoples opinions or comments to be humorous—I'm guilty of this myself a bit. {:-P;;  I would suggest one not hold on so dearly to their opinions as being gospel. We're not here to be converted. I get annoyed with folks who attack others while standing on their high horse, and I feel obligated to step in with a response. >:(-

I don't claim to be perfect, I make a lot of mistakes. That's why I'm here to listen, offer opinions from what I've experienced or read, and learn that I might have been wrong.  :o
« Last Edit: October 09, 2006, 12:20:39 PM by Rocmon »

Offline Joyce

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2006, 11:06:39 AM »
Yup, I agree Mucky.  (8:-)
Good advice from John Johns, Roddy and yourself!
(not to mention rocmon) 8)




Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2006, 05:39:17 PM »
>>Um... Your standing on a really high pedestal there aren't you? Have you written to professor Eric R. Norland, or professor William E. Lynch Jr. regarding their article?

I see articles riddled with pushing 'aerators' which amount to

a) dangerous application of electricity in difficult weather conditions likely to result in serious harm to pond owners and damage to valuable collections

b) mechanical devices likely to fail for prolonged periods of time at a time when they are 'supposed' to be essential (eg brown outs, power failures, mechanical failure)

c) water turbulence likely to interfere with the natural protection caused by inversion

d) a disregard for simpler and more effective techniques for relieving toxic conditions under ice a.k.a. a simple hole in the ice

e) a disregard for other more efficient ways to protect fish stocks e.g. japanese 'double glazing' technique

The pedestal I stand upon

a) If I relied upon such inadequate and flawed methods, pumps and aerators stuff will be killed, money gets wasted on junk that is less than effective. I don't do that, nor do I waste a dime on expensive inefficient contraptions that are going to fail.

b) I've been keeping various configurations of ponds, heavily planted, with various fish for many years and found by maintaining inversion conditions and venting ice conditions the likes of amphibians, turtles, fish, cope reliably.

One example of the delicate balance inversion creates, turtles tend to hibernate just below the thermocline, relying on oxygen absorbed though the skin of their claoca. Now, if the thermocline is disrupted they will be forced into deeper water, where oxygen levels are lower. They are more likely to die out of sight and create extensive pollution affecting the whole pond under ice through Winter...

I dread to think what would happen if I started applying turbulence. The consequences would for sure be ice thickness accelerated, increased freezing damage done to plants increasing more pollution under ice, hibernating critters would be exposed to near freezing conditions and dying out of sight instead of safely hibernating in forties cool water

The assumption that oxygen failure is the only risk presented by inversion during Winter conditions is inadequate. Crackpots pushing potentially dangerous, expensive and ineffective solutions are something to be wary of...

Regards, andy
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« Last Edit: October 10, 2006, 06:24:31 PM by andrew davis »

Offline EagleEye

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2006, 06:17:25 PM »
If a person had a large "natural" pond in a country where it is consistantly 20 degrees below, would it be smart to try to circulate the bottom water upwards to try to keep the pond warmer? This was Esthers question that she was trying to ask.
The answer is NO. But to keep a hole open using the bottom water is something that the ponds and small lakes around here do. Up north here, where it's 20 below, we know that if you don't, you will have a fish die off.

Steve
My Biggest Worry Is That the other half (when I'm dead)  Will Sell My Fishing Stuff For What I Said I Paid For It

Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2006, 09:17:12 PM »
It depends upon the objective of the pondkeeper, if they have quantities of tough as old boots trout needing a high DOC 7ppm, a diffuser set just below the freezeline might get some oxygen into the water, however oxygen does not readily dissolve in water and the consequences (failure) of the airstone freezing up is high.

Ever tried fishing out an airstone from a block of ice several feet thick to find out if it is working or not. What fun

Of course, if you can audit the fish load, plant load and measure DOC, that might anticipate whether DOC is likely to be critical over a period...

Then, relying completely on an inneffective pump is going to do very little, if the pond is heavily planted, the freeze and ice goes on for two weeks or more and all the plants die off for lack of photosynthesis at one time, overloading methane and hydrogen sulphide beyond poisonous levels

Bubbling a bit of oxygen in one small area will not do enough to alleviate those toxic conditions on a large pond

Pumping bubbles of oxygen into a few square feet of water is hardly going to make much difference on the scale of hundreds of square feet, if you do it at night in sub zero conditions you will be hammering sub zero water to thicken beneath ice layers, blowing warm inverted water upwards to be super cooled, making bad conditions worse.

Don't be surprised to see significant fish kills, plus the remnant fish in atrocious shape by the time spring arrives

Better to sweep the snow and increase the chances of oxygen photosynthesising from plants, rather than risk plants dying en masse, and maintain a couple of ice vents to relieve toxic gases...

Take note that aeration will not remove ammonia from the water. Aeration by venting will allow some benthic gasses such a methane and hydrogen sulfide to escape rather than accumulate during ice cover...

Regards, andy
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Offline Rocmon

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2006, 10:41:17 PM »
"Take note that aeration will not remove ammonia from the water. Aeration by venting will allow some benthic gasses such a methane and hydrogen sulfide to escape rather than accumulate during ice cover..."

I find it hard to believe you actually read the articles you critiqued. Maybe you skimmed them searching for methane and hydrogen sulfide to be mentioned if not, discarded all else presented as "inadequate and flawed methods."

Yes I acknowledge your concern about methane and hydrogen sulfide. All the articles which you criticize state that aeration is required to prevent winter kills. O2 is what they state is needed by those ponds with the conditions that cause winter kill to occur—however one chooses to create that. They don't care about methane and hydrogen sulfide because it doesn't play a significant role in winter kills in the opinions of all the articles presented thus far. They generally suggested aeration for several hours during daylight hours... And yes some of the methods suggested were... not something a reasonable person would attempt.

Scientific articles submitted are generally reviewed by a committee (depends on quality of publication). If needed an author may have to defend their propositions or findings. They are scrutinized before publication. You have some differing ideas which you claim is the only truth. Can you please post links to scientific articles that have adequate and unflawed methods stating methane and hydrogen sulfide is the determining factor for winter kill in ponds? So far I haven't seen any...

"If I relied upon such inadequate and flawed methods" .........You'de be in congress... lol

Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2006, 01:51:36 AM »
>>I find it hard to believe you actually read the articles you critiqued.

I don't read articles very closely the moment I notice substantial flaws. A bit like I ignore all posts by Joyce...

>>All the articles which you criticize state that aeration is required to prevent winter kills.

Oxygenating some insignificant corner of a large pond or lake won't stop a massive kill of aquatic plants doing a massive kill on fish stocks. Oxygenating in many circumstances will disrupt the delicate protective inversion layer and severely disable fish which are likely to die like flies when Spring warms in the case of 'warm water' fish variety

>>They don't care about methane and hydrogen sulfide because it doesn't play a significant role in winter kills in the opinions of all the articles presented thus far.

They don't care because they are neither competent or experienced owners or managers able to differentiate the risks.

>>Scientific articles submitted are generally reviewed by a committee (depends on quality of publication). If needed an author may have to defend their propositions or findings. They are scrutinized before publication.

I'm sure that makes for great reading under Winter ice

>>Can you please post links to scientific articles that have adequate and unflawed methods stating methane and hydrogen sulfide is the determining factor for winter kill in ponds? So far I haven't seen any...

What have 'scientific' articles got to do with anything. Go fish for a second and third opinion from Bob Lusk and Bill Cody over at pondboss.com

Those are a couple of folk who are among the most experienced and best connected owners and managers of freshwater environments in North America

Not nickel and dime academics. Nor are they unqualified, inexperienced louts posing as 'professionals'

Regards, andy
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« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 02:22:33 AM by andrew davis »

Offline Joyce

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2006, 05:08:01 AM »
Rocmon, he'd definitely be in Congress! lol ;D :D
(cuz he's not making any progress!)
 :P

It's funny who's calling the kettle black! ;)
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline Mucky_Waters

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2006, 06:44:55 AM »
Sorry Andrew, I just don't think you are convincing anyone that your stagnant pond theory is a healthy environment for fish. Perhaps posting an external link or two from some accredited sources that supports your views, as Rocmon suggested, would help your argument slightly.
I'm still reading your posts, so I haven't completely written you off yet as a, how did you put it?, oh yes, "unqualified, inexperienced lout posing as 'professional".  ;)

When I think of a healthy pond I think of one that's well circulated with clean, clear, oxygenated water, something like the picture below.
[img width= height=]http://www.lake-aeration.com/images/pond_aeration_windmill.gif[/img]


I don't know why, but when I try to visualize the type of pond environment the way you are describing I keep getting a mental picture like the one below.

Offline Rocmon

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2006, 10:39:14 AM »
What have 'scientific' articles got to do with anything. Go fish for a second and third opinion from Bob Lusk and Bill Cody over at pondboss.com
Those are a couple of folk who are among the most experienced and best connected owners and managers of freshwater environments in North America
Not nickel and dime academics. Nor are they unqualified, inexperienced louts posing as 'professionals'

If a couple of "the most experienced and best connected owners and managers of freshwater environments in North America" is all it takes, then we should all be installing Aquascape ponds... I also believe there are more than a few second and third opinions right here... You note "substantial flaws" as your grounds for article rejection. So far as I can tell substantial flaws are those articles which don't focus on methane and hydrogen sulfide, is this correct?

OK, lets try make this easy for you...

I'm not sure you have offered a solution to the problem. You abhor the idea of the inversion layer being disturbed. You have criticized aeration and circulation of pond water, cried out the alarm about methane and hydrogen sulfide, yet offer no solution. Folks are looking to prevent fish death in their ponds over winter. What is YOUR solution?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2006, 11:33:06 AM by Rocmon »

Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #40 on: October 14, 2006, 04:15:28 AM »
'My solution' is to analyse the circumstances of the location, historical weather data, listen carefully to the experience of others who have significant interests and apply whatever methods are most appropriate to the circumstances.

To be ready well before the event... To the extent where at least two empty 1000' sq ft ponds are on standby in case several ponds are taken out by a drought / storm / leaks and have to be evacuated at short notice...

I keep a range of ponds, often heavily planted, often populated by turtles, fish, amphibians which may face two weeks or more of sub zero conditions quite capable of annihilating everything in the ponds (both lined and clay) I'm not in the habit of relying on pumps and junk science

I'm in the habit of using methods that work

That focuses on going to some lengths to maintain the inversion layer, to vent toxic gases, if necessary to resort to a double glazing technique if conditions are bad enough

Mucky, your first diagram is irrelevant to many ponds, that is relevant to natural lake owners with ponds deeper that six foot regarding the problem of oxygen depletion in Summer months when stratification affects deep water with aneirobic conditions. Relevant to folk who are in a position to accurately assess the bio load to arrive at an effective aeration installation (a substantial capitol cost, likely to be botched by amateurs) Apply that in Winter conditions to many folks ponds and you will accelerate ice thickness and severely jeopardise 'warm water' type fish aka not relevant to Winter inversion.

Your second diagram is irrelevant, most folk don't do ponds that bad. It refers to a schematic of Summer conditions in a pond assumed to be overloaded with mud, organic decay, zero level experience. Dig a hole, throw in a liner, throw in mud and fish and neglect it type pond. aka Nothing to do with inversion in Winter months.

Why are you referring to useless second hand references, out of context?

>>Folks are looking to prevent fish death in their ponds over Winter. What is YOUR solution?

This is substantially off topic so just a basic outline, I'm well headed toward a 'got better things to do' mentallity, with much more pleasant and useful things to get on with.

In previous years on a pond with too many fish a solution I resort to in weeks of sub zero weather is a double glazing technique with venting. Kinda mentioned this last year, and the year before that.... Some folk use Bickal de icers, or heat elements, (a tad dependant on risky electricity) or cover whole or part of the pond to similar effect (a very sound strategy, well executed)

Let's take an example of a 20'x6' two foot deep pond. Pond heavily planted... 30 fish, some a foot long. That's one fish every 4sq ft of pond. No pumps and junk. The weather forecast indicates extensive freeze for more than a week, likely freeze depth 18" (not good in a 24" pond) so, double glazing is implemented.



Ice layer is stopped at three inches thick, sub zero air is kept above the ice layer, water surface below is more or less kept frost free, all fish survive. A couple of inches depth freezing damage to plants. Sub zero weather lasts two weeks. When thaw sets in partial water change is applied to compensate for plants spoiled by three inch ice thickness.

Folk relying on pumps, aerators will be the ones to have the horrible casualty rates and bad fish conditions going into Spring, it usually sounds like the ghastly effect of circulating water, mechanical failures, prolonged sealed ice, time after time

I get to hear the same sob stories every Spring.... and puhleeeese, no need to mention Aquascape. Some of us have been having no significant casualties on ponds, year after year, long before Aquascape was around and never relied on (or payed for the $200 air compressor, 10c a megawatt or the $3000 solar pump) ham fisted mechanical solutions

There is quite a bit more to making a pond safe for fish through Winter besides having a clear knowledge of how inversion conditions can be used beneficially to an advantage, as that is wandering significantly off topic by all means go get second and third opinion from folk who really, reeeeeaally know their stuff and are inclined to go into detail at length

And have been doing it year, after year... Quite a few folk on pondboss are in the habit of right first time analysis, civil conversations, competent professional chit chats... With managing fish stocks, capitol costs, utility installations, the application of physics chemistry, engineering etc., you are looking towards seeking professional calibre experience of considerable depth, really.

Regards, andy
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« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 05:31:33 AM by andrew davis »

Offline Joyce

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #41 on: October 14, 2006, 05:33:03 AM »
>>Folks are looking to prevent fish death in their ponds over Winter. What is YOUR solution?

This is subtantially off topic


Exactly how is this off topic? {-)

Or is this is 'off topic' comment the typical behavior of andyy trying lamely to create a diversion,
cuz it's so seriously ON TOPIC and andyyy has no 'on topic' answer. ::)

Rocmon, nice illustrations! Very readable and realistic! O0
(wish you didn't edit your post, there was a good question there towards the end) lol

Esther, I hope you have found an answer to your original question somewhere between the messes here. 8)
For what it is worth, I have seen bubblers placed only a foot (or less) beneath the surface, so to keep a hole in the ice using the top layer of water, but not to disturb the deeper, warmer layers.
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Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2006, 06:00:34 AM »
The topic was what is inversion and does it make sense to circulate warm water from the bottom of the pond

Roddy and myself have made it quite clear significant risk is done to valuable fish, with some exceptions

This can be confirmed at pondboss.com by very experienced professional owners and managers of freshwater lakes, fish farms etc

Mucky specifically asked a question which went off topic, but was slightly relevant to the topic of inversion. There are ways to use it to advantage, significant to folk with shallow ponds in a severe freeze

>>cuz it's so seriously ON TOPIC and andyyy has no 'on topic' answer

Four methods known to be effective were mentioned. Double glazing, Bickal de icers, heat elements, structures that apply solar warmth.... As usual Joyce, you choose to make  false, misleading statements.

Regards, andy
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« Last Edit: October 14, 2006, 06:30:15 AM by andrew davis »

Offline Joyce

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2006, 06:54:26 AM »
you choose to make  false, misleading statements.

 lol  lol lol Look who's calling the kettle black!  lol  lol  lol
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Offline fishlipsmcgee

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2006, 07:08:54 AM »
Esther, I have also heard it is better not to circulate water from the bottom of the pond to warm the water temp as the fish need the colder water at the bottom so they can go into hibernation and survive the winter.  I have placed a submersible pump with the fountain extension tubes removed on a plant shelf so that the exit from the pump is about 2-3 inches below the water surface thus acting like a bubbler and the intake is less than a foot below the surface so it does not disturb the colder water at the bottom.  This keeps a hole open (except in prolonged periods of freezing temps or heavy snowfalls) and does not circulate the water at the bottom of the pond.  I have only done this because I already have the submersible and keeping it in the pond over the winter keeps it from drying out and in working order over the winter.  To keep a hole open for gas exchange I rely on a low wattage de-icer.
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Offline Mikey

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Zone 10 Inversion.....
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2006, 12:43:49 PM »
Here's a photo of zones 9-11 inversion that MikeW, BlindToo, Jerry, Craig, PondmaninFL, Tammie and I have to deal with..... {:-P;;

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Offline fishlipsmcgee

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2006, 01:34:36 PM »
Quote
Here's a photo of zones 9-11 inversion that MikeW, BlindToo, Jerry, Craig, PondmaninFL, Tammie and I have to deal with.....
  lol  Now put a little sumthin' sumthin' in that glass to give that tea a kick and you're really talkin'  :D
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Offline Teresa

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2006, 03:38:09 PM »
Finally!!!  Something on this thread worth reading!!!  And I agree that we need a kick for that tea . . . .

(Not that the excellent explanations and descriptions weren't worth reading, but the argumentative posts of somebody weren't worth the time they took to scroll past!)

Offline Craig

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2006, 04:21:50 PM »
We take an ice tea break every afternoon...need my late day caffeine.<g>  And it invariably has an additive in it, but not a potent potable...mango/peach juice.<g>
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Offline Teresa

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2006, 04:50:18 PM »
Uh oh!  Now we've taken this thread waaayyyyyy off topic and someone's gonna get mad!!!!

Offline Joyce

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #50 on: October 14, 2006, 04:53:20 PM »
I love Sweet Tea! o(:-)

And I know how to make it,
so all you Southerners will know where to go for it when you come up North! (8:-)
Peace to all  ... Joyce



Breast Cancer Survivor

“Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature.
It will never fail you.”
Frank Lloyd Wright

Offline Johns

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2006, 09:10:57 PM »
Andrew,

You are consistently in error in this thread.  Oops, I would guess that you have stopped reading this by now, but should you be just slightly curious, allow me to enlighten you.  When Mucky provided the link to William E. Lynch Jr. and Eric R. Norland's article ( http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0008.html ) you responded with , (and I Quote you):

"This document features zero competence regarding major factors influencing water chemistry under ice. Roddy Conrad would probably laugh at such junk 'science'"

And now you have again invoked Dr. Conrad as supporting your point of view.

I humbly present the e-mail I sent to Cr. Conrad:

"
Request your thoughts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. Conrad,

Your name has been invoked in a discussion of pond temperature inversion or turnover resulting in fish kills on the American Ponders forum. At issue is an article by William E. Lynch Jr. and Eric R. Norland of Ohio State University at http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0008.html . If you have the time and inclination, could you scan the referenced article and let me know whether you think these guys have got it right, or are they the rank amateurs some think they are? I have always valued your opinion and look forward to your response.

Thanks,

John Johns"

Dr. Conrad's reply to me:

"
Winter fish kills

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree with them that the most common cause of winter fish kills is enough ice covering the pond to prevent oxygen from reaching the water.

The main concern in winter is keeping oxygen in the water however it can be done.

I cover my main outdoor koi pond with a cheap DIY PVC frame greenhouse and leave a portion of the filter system in operation.

I keep the filtration running all Winter on my goldfish and golden orfe ponds.
__________________
Roddy Conrad
Charleston, WV, USA
Your ponding chemist "

I submit, based on the foregoing, that Dr Conrad does not, in fact, agree with your main contention throughout this thread that oxygen deprivation is NOT the cause of most winter kill fish deaths and he does NOT agree with you that the aforementioned article is "junk science."

You know, I have been mistaken on matters of fact more times than I like to admit, but in the face of certainty that I am wrong; I DO admit my error and re-adjust my thinking.  Apparently, based on the above, this is an attribute you do not share.  At least not yet.

Offline Mucky_Waters

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2006, 06:47:38 AM »
Mikey
You MikeW, BlindToo, Jerry, Craig, PondmaninFL, Tammie and the rest of you have my sympathies in regard to your inversion problem. Having just come through a very hot dry summer and acquired some experience in these maters, and I think I understand your problem and can offer a couple of suggestions to help you deal with your dilemma.
While Andrew would probably insist that it would be unsafe to disturb the inversion layer of your beverage until all the ice has thawed, I on the other hand think the best course of action would be to immediately employ some sort of suction device (a straw) directly into the lower portion of the thermocline and slowly, but carefully, remove the inversion by siphoning it out with a gentle sucking action.
Although in theory this process sounds easy enough, it is not without it's dangers. In implementing such a method of inversion removal you must be extremely careful that you don't use too much suction, too fast, for fear you could inadvertently "super cool"  the fluid. The consequences of such a reckless and risky maneuver would surely result in an inevitable and painful case of Brain Freeze.

So please, If you should decide to follow this course of action, please proceed in a cautious and responsible manner.  {-)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 07:31:56 AM by Mucky_Waters »

Offline Monica

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2006, 08:01:58 AM »
Mikey
You MikeW, BlindToo, Jerry, Craig, PondmaninFL, Tammie and the rest of you have my sympathies in regard to your inversion problem. Having just come through a very hot dry summer and acquired some experience in these maters, and I think I understand your problem and can offer a couple of suggestions to help you deal with your dilemma.
While Andrew would probably insist that it would be unsafe to disturb the inversion layer of your beverage until all the ice has thawed, I on the other hand think the best course of action would be to immediately employ some sort of suction device (a straw) directly into the lower portion of the thermocline and slowly, but carefully, remove the inversion by siphoning it out with a gentle sucking action.
Although in theory this process sounds easy enough, it is not without it's dangers. In implementing such a method of inversion removal you must be extremely careful that you don't use too much suction, too fast, for fear you could inadvertently "super cool"  the fluid. The consequences of such a reckless and risky maneuver would surely result in an inevitable and painful case of Brain Freeze.

So please, If you should decide to follow this course of action, please proceed in a cautious and responsible manner.  {-)

Your are so bad  lol
The irony of life is that, by the time you're old enough to know your way around, you're not going anywhere

Offline Joyce

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #54 on: October 16, 2006, 08:10:05 AM »
MW....Finally, someone with some sense!  ;) lol @O@
Peace to all  ... Joyce



Breast Cancer Survivor

“Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature.
It will never fail you.”
Frank Lloyd Wright

Offline Johns

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2006, 09:37:39 AM »
Mucky,

There is one glaring exception to your rule.. In the case of Limoncello, taken directly from the sub zero temperatures of your freezer, you must only sip very slowly from the top, otherwise loss of consciousness,  is sure to result.  See Below:


Limoncello di Casa Giovannis
A Lemon Liquer Infusion
Best when served directly from the freezer
Ingredients: beverage alcohol, well water,
pure cane sugar, Lemon oil infused from
the peel of fresh lemons
Alcohol by Volume: 37%


Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2006, 02:15:56 PM »
Yup, Roddy with a fish only pond is going to notice oxygen depletion during Winter periods when water ices over on ponds with dense fish populations.

Along with turbulence associated with pumps or aerators there is going to be the additional risk of water too cold for koi in particular being circulated to the bottom of the pond

Folk with heavily planted ponds and low density fish are going to see the accumulation of toxic gases doing winter kills before oxygen is depleted.

Where folk confuse Summer stratification with Winter inversion... or are not aware of temperature inversion they can end up thickening their ice, eliminating warmer deep waters and the pump fails...

There is not much you can after the event, when the ice is that thick

You won't be sucking up anything nice after that has brewed for two or three days

>>http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0008.html

This document fails to differentiate consequences in different configurations of pond in winter
(There are big differences in requirements between fish species, ornamental ponds, fishponds and fish farms)

Fails to describe the consequences of hydrogen sulphide and methane under ice
(Relevant to folk whose ornamental ponds are heavily planted)

Fails to describe simpler, more reliable ways to protect valuable fish stocks
(eg solar structures, double glazing to stop ice thickening on shallow ponds)

Fails to describe the consequences of circulating cold water to lower depth
(causing fish gills to ice up, ice to thicken)

Fails to describe the benefits of Winter inversion
(which protects warm water type fish)

Fails to describe the risk of being dependant upon mechanical devices
(ever tried to check ice crystals blocking an aerator beneath a block of ice, ever tried to repair a power grid that does fail)

a.k.a This document features zero competence regarding major factors influencing water chemistry under ice.

Johns, Roddy corroborated the risk of chilling deeper waters and notices oxygen levels under ice can be depleted (which is obvious)

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 02:57:58 PM by andrew davis »

Offline Craig

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #57 on: October 16, 2006, 03:17:23 PM »
My problem with what you have to say Andrew is that you state observations as fact, yet don't seem able or inclined to corroborate any of them with science while dismissing out of hand all contradictory scientific articles presented to you as "junk science".

I read the discussions I could find on the subject on Pondboss as you suggested and there was no mention of heavily planted ponds or toxic gases.  The concerns all centered around O2 depletion and winter kills.....at least in the threads I found.  They all also had to do with large ponds/lakes that you now claim to be "irrelevant to many ponds".  They also were quite clear on the benefit of bubblers in large ponds at levels closer to the surface that did not disturb the warmer water at the bottom, while you say "Pumping bubbles of oxygen into a few square feet of water is hardly going to make much difference on the scale of hundreds of square feet".  Yet you imply these people you have selected as your experts substantiate your claims...something I failed to discern in my readings of the site.

Double glazing....where are the specifics?  Just how cold is it in the example you offer that some water will freeze to 18" in a week, but stop at 3" in the pond in the diagram?  Can you explain to me the mechanics as to why the ice stops at 3" and offer a time frame for how long and how deep the cold must be for the ice to get thicker than that?

Your diagram shows snow on the pond, is that an integral part of the protection?  Because my readings on Pondboss had snow on the pond as a cause of oxygen depletion leading to fish kills.

And the shifts in your position?  First you say "Roddy and myself have made it quite clear significant risk is done to valuable fish", but when it appears he disagrees with you that now becomes "Yup, Roddy with a fish only pond is going to notice oxygen depletion during Winter periods when water ices over on ponds with dense fish populations.Along with turbulence associated with pumps or aerators there is going to be the additional risk of water too cold for koi being circulated to the bottom of the pond."  So while it might be true you both made the risks clear you now just slough off that you where each clarifying contradictory  risks?

And the "fifty something water" you claimed to have encountered in a pond with an iced over surface in your first posts...that too seems now to have disappeared from your "observations".  Can you explain that to me?

Personal observations are fine in and of themselves, but need substantiation before they become fact.  After all, at one time people 'observed' that the sun rotated around a stationary flat earth.  And the ancients 'observed' that a dragon swallowed the sun during an eclipse.  So surely you can see that while observations can be useful, they can also be deceiving and unsupportable.
Craig     SW FL 9B

Don't sweat the petty things....and don't pet the sweaty things.

Offline Joyce

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #58 on: October 16, 2006, 04:40:14 PM »
Good points Craig! O0

I can never make heads or tails of what andyy posts. ::)
Plus he keeps on changing his story. lol
I wish we had a 'bipolar' emoticon.  ;D

But he does make me laugh, which is fun! :D
Peace to all  ... Joyce



Breast Cancer Survivor

“Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature.
It will never fail you.”
Frank Lloyd Wright

Offline Mikey

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #59 on: October 16, 2006, 04:44:01 PM »
LOL @ M-W and Johns lol
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