Author Topic: What is inversion?  (Read 9955 times)

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Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #60 on: October 16, 2006, 05:18:26 PM »
Well, Craig, as it is a topic very relevant to many ponders across the world, it is probably well worth examining the 'options' that ponders are faced each Winter, I have to remind myself to be ready for the worst.

Sub zero weather, weeks on end. Maybe -10°f to 20°f typical here, weather systems straight from the Arctic via Ohio, though slightly less time exposed to them. Quite possibly power failures for days at a time...

The 'professor' at Ohio seem to have failed to mention, a simple hole in the ice is reliable. Sub zero air does not transmit through ice (don't ask me why, it does not, some scientist will probably explain, ice can get no colder than 32°f)

So, if you drop the water level half an inch or so below the ice, when ice is strong over a pond, the water surface stays more or less ice free, toxic gases can aerate with just one or two intsy wintsy vents.

Voila, no toxic build up. Water surface is ice free, no oxygen depletion. Plants photosynthesise fine, less ice depth, plant freeze damage minimised. Apropriate for ornamental planted ponds where spans of ice can be stable, not lakes.



When you peer through the vent, you can see the fish, peeking back up at you... With fish requirements of oxygen in Winter being 8% (so fish keepers quote, Roark?) of Summer requirements, and inverted water capable of holding more oxygen than in Summer, oxygen depletion is not much of a factor. Well, it wasn't to the 30 fish under that ice on a 120 sq ft pond two feet deep. They came through two weeks plus sub zero in fine fettle, when the majority of other ponds were being wiped out.

Now, when you have your thick strong layer of ice, you can have another blanket of thermal insulation on top of that, snow, to further insulate sub zero air from the insulated, ice free water below the ice

You can sweep say a 20% area of the snow if the freeze is likely to last weeks, not always important as quite often there are 'bald' areas of ice where the snow does not settle which lets light through to keep the plants doing their little bit of photosynthesise (instead of dying en masse in a black out with some air bubble working in an insignificant corner doing very little but thicken the ice and squirt bubbles in a small insignificant area)

You can test how thick the snow can be kept, by physically measuring how much snow it takes to block out light, over four inches or so (no special equipment needed, just hold a clear plastic bag of snow held to the light)

So, the vent:
1) Stops the ice thickening at a desirable thickness to become an ice shield over the ice free surface
2) Snow can be used to further insulate most of the pond
3) snow can be partially cleared to provide light, to ensure plants do not fail
4) The ice stopped at 4" thick? does not continue to cause further freeze damage to aquatic plants further reducing pollution if ice depth had gone on to be much thicker, without the air cavity

(A similar effect to ice double glazing is achieved by putting a structure over the pond, to catch the sun's rays, it can eliminate ice in the covered area)

>>Yet you imply these people you have selected as your experts substantiate your claims...something I failed to discern in my readings of the site.

There are folk there who can clearly calculate the risks and apply aeration to best advantage, they have significant experience, my claim is they appear to be competent and have professional track records. Yups, if you ferret through the search feature, you will find statements discussing the need to calculate the risk from oxygen depletion and toxic sources, to gauge the depth of the body of water as to whether aeration will be effective or not

I do notice folk there valuing the inversion layer, using it to advantage, and being cagey about cooling deeper water, which is something I've noticed. For years. Especially when I keep finding turtles hibernating a few inches below the hypercline. Sometimes they are dinky little turtles, other times they are huge snapping turtles, peering up through ice, waiting for Summer...

I do not know how effective a bubbler is in shallow water, so I don't comment, other than knowing bubblers can and do fail from ice crystals forming within the pipe, power failures etc. I can only estimate that the turbulence will mix sub zero air to increase super cooling in the surface water, likely to spread under the ice and thicken it. I don't plan on doing anything likely to fail, or drive cold water deeper...

>>Just how cold is it in the example you offer that some water will freeze to 18" in a week, but stop at 3" in the pond in the diagram?

Ice freezes at about the rate of an inch a day, after a couple of weeks of freezing... do I want ice 14" thick, maybe more in two weeks time on a two foot deep pond

Or do I stop it at four inches thick by creating an air cavity below the ice... Bear in mind there are big heavy tubs of plants at the water level taking the weight of the ice on the ponds here, so there are no spans of ice more than 10'

>>And the "fifty something water" you claimed to have encountered in a pond with an iced over surface in your first posts...that too seems now to have disappeared from your "observations".  Can you explain that to me?

I've noticed ice on the pond half and inch thick. The air is 15°f, two foot down the thermometer is 52°f. Late Summer ground warmth, the effect of ground springs, maybe added to by the warmth from decaying mulm...

Also, late Spring freezes in a warm Spring, not likely to be significant other than to the few frogs that were killed, water too warm to hibernate, no air for them to breathe. Not a predictable problem, big differentiation between air and water, to be observed occasionally with the change in season

Factors which make 'theories' not always predictable...

>>So surely you can see that while observations can be useful, they can also be deceiving and unsupportable

Sure, I get to observe other folk having a lot of casualties, year after year. The novelty of other folk having wipe outs by the pondfull, after depending on pumps and junk wore off a long time ago.

When it comes to using aerators in ponds, I'd listen to experienced folk on pondboss.com, who appear to be reliable, trustworthy and have extensive experience on the subject. But that, is only an opinion of course, of someone who has noticed the difference....

Of course my position changes, when relevant information or data becomes apparent comprehending different scenarios, different ponds. The effect of ground warmth and ground springs is something I'd be curious to know better. The impact of massive die off of algae under ice etc...

It did not occur to me that Roddy Conrad was not familiar with natural ponds, he is certainly familiar with matters significant to fish ponds, the risk of cooling deep water and covering a pond, which is more reliable, and cost effective than the 'Professor's' opinion...

Joyce, I strongly recommend your 'clients' read message boards such as pondboss.com, if only to find out what the real calibre of professional, competence is like among folk in the landscape and lake management industry

Regards, andy
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« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 06:03:21 PM by andrew davis »

Offline Joyce

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #61 on: October 16, 2006, 05:43:28 PM »
Are you talking to me andyyyy?
Make up your mind, once again. ;D
You said earlier you ignore my posts. ::)
So practice what you preach!  :P

Since you are recommending pondboss, that's gonna scare a lot of people away. lol lol lol
I wonder how'd they feel about that? :o
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 05:50:40 PM by Joyce »
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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It will never fail you.”
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Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #62 on: October 16, 2006, 06:43:50 PM »
Someone asked for corroborating sources regarding the subject of inversion and aeration

Folk at pondboss.com are familiar with the subject. Reliable, expert advice can be found with the search feature.

Regards, andy
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Offline EagleEye

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #63 on: October 16, 2006, 07:04:37 PM »
Since you are recommending pondboss, that's gonna scare a lot of people away. too funny too funny too funny

Why would that scare ayone away? And what is funny about it? Seems like a great site to me.

Steve

My Biggest Worry Is That the other half (when I'm dead)  Will Sell My Fishing Stuff For What I Said I Paid For It

Offline Rocmon

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #64 on: October 16, 2006, 08:24:59 PM »
>>>"Sub zero weather lasts two weeks. When thaw sets in partial water change is applied to compensate for plants spoiled by three inch ice thickness."
..."So, if you drop the water level half an inch or so below the ice, when ice is strong over a pond, the water surface stays more or less ice free, toxic gases can aerate with just one or two intsy wintsy vents."
..."Along with turbulence associated with pumps or aerators there is going to be the additional risk of water too cold for koi in particular being circulated to the bottom of the pond"

Your suggesting water changes, dropping the pond level under the ice, yet this is all achieved all without creating a turbulence? Interesting...

>>>"I get to hear the same sob stories every Spring"

Is this when we read about all your lilies that you "obtained from others" that die of fungal infection and root rot? Maybe you should sweep the snow more?

>>>"You can sweep say a 20% area of the snow" VS "Bubbling a bit of oxygen in one small area will not do enough to alleviate those toxic conditions on a large pond"

This seams contradictory. Do plants really produce that much O2 under 4" of ice, and 4" of snow, given plants have darkness more hours than light in winter, to create so much more O2 than aeration? The consumption of O2 by the plants doesn't seem to bother you? Are the plants at the surface so as not to disturb the inversion layer while producing O2?

That's not to mention that a layer of water under ice is hardly an over active surface for gas exchange, how is it so much more effective than deliberate surface disruption and O2 infusion by aeration? Please don't cite a power failure here.

>>>" Sub zero air does not transmit through ice (don't ask me why,"

Insulation is great stuff. You talk about double glazing like you understand what insulation does. Think about igloos, or snow caves and how they work...

I find it distressing that you invoke the name of others to back yourself up, until what they say contradicts your claims, then you attack them as well... You come across like a really nice fellow.




Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #65 on: October 17, 2006, 12:19:51 AM »
>>Your suggesting water changes, dropping the pond level under the ice, yet this is all achieved all without creating a turbulence? Interesting...

Siphoning half an inch of water through a small hole from under a few inches of ice creates no significant turbulence. It is not a water change

>>Is this when we read about all your lilies that you "obtained from others" that die of fungal infection and root rot? Maybe you should sweep the snow more?

Root rot, a close cousin to potato blight, has nothing to do with snow, winter, inversion or aerators. It affects many folks ponds, who have no scruples dumping infected plants in trades.

>>This seams contradictory. Do plants really produce that much O2 under 4" of ice, and 4" of snow, given plants have darkness more hours than light in winter, to create so much more O2 than aeration? The consumption of O2 by the plants doesn't seem to bother you? Are the plants at the surface so as not to disturb the inversion layer while producing O2?

Here's a statement from someone in Canada (from pondboss), who gets 200 days ice per year. Yups, how the uptake of oxygen by plants affects water oxygen levels is an interesting question. Obviously plants do contribute sufficient oxygen during a 200 day period, as trout have very high oxygen requirements....
----------------------------
bz, you make a valid point regarding the impact of bod on whether winter aeration is necessary, and I do not know the answer in your specific instance. I did over-winter trout for two years successfully with only snow removal (and lots of it). My pond is less than a quarter acre with around a 100 trout from 12" to 16" at that time. My pond is also only about three years old which I believe helped. I did get around 200 days of ice cover and no fish kill.
----------------------------
Now, that guy could have spent $2,000 on a solar pump installation, and found that was completely dead money and a rip off...

>>That's not to mention that a layer of water under ice is hardly an over active surface for gas exchange, how is it so much more effective than deliberate surface disruption and O2 infusion by aeration?

Aeration does not 'infuse' much oxygen. Plants under the ice do. What an unfrozen water surface does do beneath a shield of ice is vent the toxic gases that can accumulate to lethal levels. The reliable slight air current through an air vent allows the lighter than water and air toxic gases to escape...

>>Insulation is great stuff. You talk about double glazing like you understand what insulation does. Think about igloos, or snow caves and how they work...

Sure, I have some idea about double glazing. I've been involved in quite a few engineering, architectural, industrial projects that have deployed it. One of my favourite projects was the development of the Snowdome, the worlds first all year indoor snow slope. That I choose not to go on at length ad nauseaum, well it is neither the time nor the place.

>>I find it distressing that you invoke the name of others to back yourself up, until what they say contradicts your claims, then you attack them as well... You come across like a really nice fellow

That Roddy may not be familiar or that interested with the dynamics of a natural pond and has not seen ponds where aneirobic conditions have destroyed plants and fish is hardly an attack. What is an attack is your attempt to make a false misleading statement of a fairly straightforward observation.

That you fail to comprehend the subject, fail to contribute any significant experience, fail to look at relevant references, fail to stay on topic, fail to make civil conversation is entirely your own choosing

Yes, Eagle, pondboss is a great website. A great asset to anyone with a serious interest in aquaculture, landscaping, lakes... excellent experienced professionals, excellent social skills for sure

Regards, andy
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Offline Craig

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2006, 04:57:46 AM »
"Sub zero air does not transmit through ice (don't ask me why....)"

Sorry Andrew, I very much need to ask you why.  It seems to be the linchpin fact in your description of your method of double glazing and it has a fatal flaw.  You cannot just make statements as fact and then say to not ask why.The fatal flaw?.....

"ice can get no colder than 32°f)"  That statement is just plain, flat out wrong.  As an inert object with no temperature regulatory capabilities, ice goes to whatever temperature it is exposed to.  Do you think everything else in your home freezer sits there at 0 deg F and the ice in with them maintains a balmy 32F?  Water about the water in the meats and such in your freezer...does the protein reach air temp and the water stay at 32?

Fact is Andrew, the temp of ice must drop to below 32 to freeze.  As I explained earlier, 32 is both the freezing and melting point of water so at that temp you will find liquid and ice in approx a fifty-fifty ration as water transitions equally between the two states.

Another fact that disproves your, only in it's pure state is the freezing point of water 32 F.  Any impurities in it and the freezing temperature drops to a point lower than 32 F, which is why salt will melt ice to a point.  The meltinig/freezing point of water with ice is down around 26-27 F as I recall..  So in the real world most ice is colder than 32 to begin with, kinda makes it implausible to say it can get no colder.

So since ice can and does get to below 32....provably, I don't need to say "don't ask me why"....your explanation of winter dynamics in the diagram is however  fatally flawed.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 08:30:35 AM by Craig »
Craig     SW FL 9B

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Offline andrew davis

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #67 on: October 17, 2006, 05:40:43 AM »
>>Sorry Andrew, I very much need to ask you why.  It seems to be the linchpin fact in your description of your method of double glazing and it has a fatal flaw.

Don't ask me why sub zero air temperatures do not transmit through a sheet of ice.

I watched for two weeks in sub zero conditions, sub zero temperatures not doing it. Feel free to invent your own observations and hypotheses on the matter

hehe

Regards, andy
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Offline Craig

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #68 on: October 17, 2006, 08:28:46 AM »
"Don't ask me why sub zero air temperatures do not transmit through a sheet of ice."

I can ask...you can't answer because it is misinformation being passed off as fact.  You can ask me though and I can explain the principles at work here.  Two words just need be added to make the above statement true, without them it is...what is that expreesion you use, oh yeah, it is "junk science".

"Feel free to invent your own observations and hypotheses on the matter"

I have been trying very hard Andrew to explain the errors in your science without making it personal...to the extent of ignoring smaller discrepancies/misinformation you have posted.  But since you just always have to get insulting to draw attention away from your ignorance, I will visit a couple more of your flaws, etc.

"Ice layer is stopped at three inches thick" is now "the ice stopped at 4" thick".  A deviation of 33% in your statements with no reason given.

"weather systems straight from the Arctic via Ohio" the correct scenario is via the Ohio River Valley.

"Sub zero weather, weeks on end. Maybe -10°f to 20°f typical here,"....  The average January temp which is the coldest month in Raleigh is a night time low of 30 and a high of 49.  So the weather conditions you describe cannot be labeled as "typical" and the lowest recorded temp is -6 F, so the -10 you mention here and the -15 you used in an earlier example are right out.

These errors/inconsistencies combined with your  junk science of "sub zero air temperatures do not transmit through a sheet of ice" and "ice can get no colder than 32°f)" leave you with about zero credibility, imo.

It is not I that is inventing observations and facts as I go along.

"hehe"

I completely understand this response.  I'd giggle like a nervous schoolgirl as well if the best "defense" of my supposedly considered and scientific position was "Don't ask me why"
« Last Edit: October 17, 2006, 01:29:21 PM by Craig »
Craig     SW FL 9B

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Offline Johns

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #69 on: October 17, 2006, 12:15:04 PM »
Oh well, I guess some will accuse me of being arrogant or talking down here.  So What!  There are facts and there are opinions.  Facts always trump opinions.

I guess the easiest way to start is with an opinion: "Andy, you are either stupid or ignorant."
 Then a fact: Ice can and does regularly become colder than 32 degrees.

The temperature of any object or liquid or gas is determined by molecular activity.  In the case of water, as it is lowered to 32 degrees Fahrenheit, it remains in a liquid state.   As more molecular energy is drawn from water, it goes through a "latent energy" state and eventually begins to become solid (ice), still at 32 degrees.  As more energy is drawn from the ice, the ice will assume temperatures of less than 32 degrees. Water (or ice)is affected slowly by temperature changes but it will eventually assume the temperature of the environment surrounding it.  That is why ice becomes thicker on a pond as air temperatures drop.  If your idiotic idea that ice could become no colder than 32 degrees were true, ice on a pond would never become any thicker than a skiff.  Try this:  The next time you have air temps of 20 below zero, stick an instant read thermometer a couple of inches into an ice cover of 10 inches on one of your ponds and measure it’s temperature  Boy, are you going to feel STUPID!.  In addition, while it is true that there are poison gasses formed via putrefaction of organic compounds under ice covered ponds, it is in fact, the deprivation of oxygen that is responsible for the majority of winter fish kills. You are beginning to sound like Zack in your protestations.

Andrew, there was a time when I had respect for you and your opinions.  As this thread continues, that respect is diminishing with each and every post you make.  Please refrain from further decreasing my respect for your expertise by abandoning this thread.

Offline Kristin F.

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #70 on: October 17, 2006, 04:04:48 PM »
umm .. err ..
-What is inversion? o(:-)

Guys, honest ... TAKE IT OUTSIDE, huh?

Men ... this thread reminds me why I'm not married  {:-P;; @O@
zone 8a

Offline Jerry

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #71 on: October 17, 2006, 06:11:54 PM »
yeah Kristen  i always thought it was changing religions @O@ @O@ @O@ @O@ @O@ @O@ ::) ::)
Jerry
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Offline EagleEye

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2006, 06:36:52 PM »
Cmon Kristin, you never met me ;) :)

Steve
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Offline Rocmon

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Re: What is inversion?
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2006, 08:41:09 PM »
>>"What is an attack is your attempt to make a false misleading statement of a fairly straightforward observation.

The problem here is I take your statements that appear to contradict each other, and put the two together. I'm not making false and misleading statements—If I am, they certainly are much more accurate and true than calling multiple articles by various authors all false because I want to believe something different.

>>That you fail to comprehend the subject, fail to contribute any significant experience, fail to look at relevant references, fail to stay on topic, fail to make civil conversation is entirely your own choosing"

You could be right there I may not comprehend the subject as I live where the coldest pond temperature is 40 degrees or so and ice doesn't fall from the sky much, let alone accumulate on my pond. That is why I'm trying to learn something about the subject but you keep interjecting your nonsense—I read the articles cited. You for your part claim they are folly and provide one web site without direct links to establish your claims. (This is a very popular method used on political blogs by those who only want to believe what they want—personal attacks on the source of facts or those posting them, and provide little to establish their claim.)

My lack of contribution is based upon your narrow filter of what constitutes fact. The fact is our president is incompetent—you can choose to believe it or not—do you now understand the subjectivity of your "facts?" Let me explain it for you—your "facts" are limited by what you are willing to believe and take no other scientific method to verify—pondboss.com is not scientific method—again it is opinion of... folks posting their...opinions, observations, some may be very competent. Those who provide science you poo poo as incompetence and many other derogatory phrases, providing a failure to make civil conversation, implying your superiority over all...

"Relevant references" are those provided by Andy... No others excepted.

Fail to stay on topic? I keep reminding you this is about people trying to keep their fish from dying from winter cold conditions and you reply with what? There are many postings here recommending aeration and water circulation, and you opposing that. Others have provided scientific materials, you have provided opinion and a web site, and said go fish... And now in addition Andy's way.

"Fail to make civil conversation" Your probably right again here. I don't do well with folks who put themselves above all others for no apparent reason other than their ego. When you hop on your high horse and put others down I respond... Sorry that's just me.

*** Personally I'd be interested in what temperatures circulation should occur for the best health of the fish. Sounds like above 40 degrees circulation is OK? What about between 40 and 32, ice free?
Unfortunately this thread has been hijacked like a rock-less or rock-bottom pond discussion. Much based on... opinions. None the less, it's being read by many.... waiting to see where it heads next.  {:-P;; :o

 

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