Author Topic: Commentary  (Read 5199 times)

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Offline Cedric

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Commentary
« on: August 05, 2008, 05:46:03 PM »
 No lily is perfect some are closer than others, please always bear in mind Im not talking cosmetics here (read a pretty picture) but performance, that means how they grow and flower. A true expert will know both the good points of a lily and the bad. Those that only give you the good points are trying to sell you something.

So I set a challenge for Kat primarily. To look at the tropical lilies she grows (mop top or not) and objectively explain the pro's and the con's of each, not only based on her experience outside the tropics where she lives, but in the tropics where these things are meant to excel, based on accumulated learned knowledge on each from a wide source as possible.

If I am asking too much of this forum (pond chat) my apologies however it is linked to the WGI site and as such I did believe there would be a certain level of objectivity.

With all due respect its the only way we can actually evaluate a lilies performance properly, if we are all willing to do that and compare notes, rather than sweeping major flaws under the carpet for the sake of a sale, we will actually be doing the future of water lilies a proper service.

And please all try and behave in a mature and sensible way in the process. Im sure that's not asking too much.

As far as the other thread on Moptops is concerned I am afraid I never had time to read it through. We are and were battling a typhoon no8 this morning and last night so my apologies if I never replied to anyone who might have had something important to add.

Cedric

Offline Joyce

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2008, 06:02:56 PM »
And please all try and behave in a mature and sensible way in the process. Im sure that's not asking too much.
Cedric

Does anyone else find this extremely condescending?   :suspect: ::) :no:

Someone should practice what they preach!  (8:-)
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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It will never fail you.”
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Offline Jerry

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2008, 06:19:15 PM »
Ced if you could have refrained form just one line  you would make my life easier.
Please try OK?  Guys n gals, don't take the bait because...... I will hold my tongue. {nono}
Can you guess the next line I refrained from using?
 lol" "And please all try and behave in a mature and sensible way in the process. I'm sure that's not asking too much."
Jerry
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"Any women that tries to be the equal of a man, lacks ambition!"

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Offline Kat

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2008, 06:57:34 PM »
 :)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 07:16:02 AM by Kat »
Kat

There is never enough room for all of the water lilies that I want ;-)

Offline Sunbeam56

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2008, 07:32:06 PM »
I think you are being very British, Cedric. And bear in mind I am an anglophile.

All souls, be they covered with chlorophyll, or hemoglobin, have good and bad points. What is good for one grower in one area, with one soil type, and one kind of water, will likely be VERY different for another grower in another area, another soil type and another water type.
The holy grail of cultivation is.... bio-diversity. :)

I don't think the discussion you are suggesting will be profitable. Because there are too many variables, and too many personal preferences.

Offline Bonnie

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2008, 07:44:15 PM »
Hi Cedric,
I suggest for you to do research and read this forum and others along with some of Perry's Watergarden books and you will find out the pro's and con's.

Anyone that has grown waterlilies for awhile knows there are many variables and some of them we just have to experience ourselves because climate, pond depth, planting, etc. can vary from one person to another.

 If I am asking too much of you, my apologies.

Offline karen J

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2008, 08:43:09 PM »
I don't think a comparison of waterlilies grown in Florida, USA should merit any comparison to waterlilies grown in Hong Kong. Completely different parts of the world with different growing conditions and different climates.

A true scientist would honestly attempt to try (honestly and vigorously) to prove his hypothesis false. If one tries to prove his hypothesis valid by rejecting negative evidence (Kat's evidence), that is considered "confirmation bias". If Kat's waterlilies grow successfully in her climate, why would you think they should or should not grow successfully in yours?

Sorry... way too many variables when it comes to plants.  ::)
Karen
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Offline Cedric

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2008, 08:50:12 PM »
I think you are being very British, Cedric. And bear in mind I am an anglophile.

All souls, be they covered with chlorophyll, or hemoglobin, have good and bad points. What is good for one grower in one area, with one soil type, and one kind of water, will likely be VERY different for another grower in another area, another soil type and another water type.
The holy grail of cultivation is.... bio-diversity. :)

I don't think the discussion you are suggesting will be profitable. Because there are too many variables, and too many personal preferences.

Quite possibly there are some cross cultural (sic) issues in how people perceive one another here, yes quite possible. But also just a few serious stereotyping issues that have no place on an "international forum". If some people spent less time analysing other posters and more on analysing the issues far more positive results would no doubt flow.

I disagree about the exercise being counter-productive however, as it's the basis on which every great garden plant is formed. That and proper working trials conducted by authoritative societies and organisations. Teach me otherwise?  I am a willing learner and will remain so for the rest of my life. To be otherwise would be arrogant and foolish.

Personal preferences have no place in such a discussion, they are secondary and not called for. Correct, it is true growing conditions are different for many people, minor differences like water PH are very easily taken into account certainly on colour. However it would be assumed that those participating are able to grow the plants in optimal conditions, i.e. in full sunshine outdoors and with adequate sunlight hours and temperatures or providing alternatives that meet these criteria. Being tropical plants that would be a basic minimum. Which is also why a broader knowledge of a plants performance is necessary to make a good evaluation in the face of a lack of a controlled environment or authority making such evaluations.
I gather that the growing of waterlilies for competition in one place is in its infancy but I am sure proper performance trials cannot be far behind.

Bio diversity amongst "garden plants" is important as is its preservation, but no where more so than in "species plants" which make up the raw ingredients of every singe one of our cherished garden plants. Without paint you cannot paint  a picture. But crucially once lost lost for ever.

The last may seem way beyond the scope of this forum. But you would be surprised where and how people have been drawn to participate in this endeavour. Even here there are indeed people who are already involved. Some who do no more than plant species in their garden, as valuable a contribution as any.

Kat I was not meaning to put you on the spot with the challenge, of course everyone is welcome to participate and I will certainly also be looking on your site for the information you have made available both good and bad on all the lilies you grow and or sell. I also stand by my opinion that "mop tops" do not perform well at all, tending to burn in temps in the high 80-90s even with high humidity, looking anything but "classical".

Meantime I will continue fostering  relationships with growers and breeders world wide and getting as many unbiased opinions as possible, if this is outside the scope of this particular forum for me so be it. However it seems to me we are in the main a very pleasant lot. It gives me the greatest pleasure, waterlilies are an addiction, once hooked there is no turning back.






« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 11:58:46 PM by Cedric »

Offline Cedric

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2008, 09:08:19 PM »

Karen obviously at this level it is more of an informal comparison. This is not a scientific journal or forum? But one thing I can tell you if a lily does well in Hong Kong it will do the same in the South of Florida. Lilies flower here all year, only going into a brief decline for the month of January.

I wish to apologise I am unable to answer or even read all the responses as I am holding down a full time job. Today I am working from home as we have restrictions on movement due to a tropical typhoon which has hit us directly, but that doesn't mean I can play on the computer indefinitely ( ;

Spare a thought for all the riders (American teams included LOL) hoping like hell it passes quickly so the Equestrian Olympics may start on time and pass smoothly.

Offline cc

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #9 on: August 06, 2008, 02:55:06 AM »
Jerry is right, don't take the bait. Someone is just looking for a chance to show off and make up for their own insecurities through putting others down.
One house to the next could have different results let alone different state or country, one person to the next could make the different too. Kat didn't ask for advice in her first post but just sharing the joy of her blooming lilies like a lot of us.
I was borned and raised in HongKong and I am glad he is not a fellow Chinese.

Offline Kat

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2008, 03:03:44 AM »
So I set a challenge for Kat primarily.
Kat I was not meaning to put you on the spot with the challenge,

 ;D
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 07:16:31 AM by Kat »
Kat

There is never enough room for all of the water lilies that I want ;-)

Offline Joyce

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 04:01:39 AM »
Basically, if you don't tell him what he wants to hear, then you are wrong.  ::)
And then he'll spew innuendo that this forum can't handle it.  :tongue:

Nope, this forum.... 'we' don't tell people what they want to hear. :no:
We only deal with the facts and we tell it to them straight. (8:-)
If they can't handle it, that's not our problem.  ;D

Thank You cc, nice to know that some people from HK are nice! 8)

Nope, I won't take the bait, but this is sorta like when I see a soda can in the road....
I aim my big Jeep at it and run it over, flatten it. That way it takes up less room for the highway department recycle trucks. ;D

I like the crunching sound too. lol
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 04:58:12 AM by Joyce »
Peace to all  ... Joyce



Breast Cancer Survivor

“Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature.
It will never fail you.”
Frank Lloyd Wright

Offline cc

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #12 on: August 06, 2008, 04:57:39 AM »
Joyce, I laugh so hard at your soda can thing, and still laughing. So funny!

Offline Kat

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2008, 05:51:09 AM »
LOL, Joyce!  I can just see the gleam in your eyes & the satisfaction of that CRUNCH!  After what you've been thru with your cancer, I definitely admire your enjoyment of life!  @O@
Kat

There is never enough room for all of the water lilies that I want ;-)

Offline Cedric

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2008, 01:38:01 AM »
And I certainly will not be lowering myself to nibble at any of your bait.

I was approached via PM by a concerned forumite and this is what I replied:

Quote
Thanks ******, Im beginning to think this forum might not be suitable for my purposes. It's a public forum and I don't think it altogether wise to be associated with some of the types here. Though I have made some really super connections, with a few very pleasant and knowledgeable people. What more could one wish for?

Thanks for you time
Cedric




« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 02:35:47 AM by Cedric »

Offline Mikey

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2008, 08:41:46 AM »
 
Quote
...when I see a soda can in the road.... I aim my big Jeep at it and run it over, flatten it.
LOL, and I thought I was the only one who intentionally ran over soda cans, however, I do it just for the sheer challenge of hitting a moving target (assuming it is moving).  I understand it's illegal to run over jay-walkers, so I confine my driving prowess to soda cans....  ;D
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Offline Joyce

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #16 on: August 07, 2008, 08:47:10 AM »
 Mikey... ;D
I'm glad I'm not the only one...yup, better if it's moving.   :woot:
Makes me feel more accomplished! O0

My straight laced Marine Corps husband, on the other hand, does not see the humor and the accomplishments of mobile can crunching.  lol
Peace to all  ... Joyce



Breast Cancer Survivor

“Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature.
It will never fail you.”
Frank Lloyd Wright

Offline Argos5

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #17 on: August 07, 2008, 09:39:33 AM »
Ahh...the delicious irony of people fighting over water lilies.

Ventura County, California, Zone 8b

Offline Koi Boi

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2008, 09:49:31 AM »
If this mop top is burnt just because it is a mere 103 degrees at 8 P.M. (five degrees lower than at 4 P.M.) I’ll take it.  In spite of whatever so called empirical evidence that may exist or be thought to exist, I know what I like and I know when and where I  like it.  I’m anal retentive enough, I need no further ratcheting in an effort to seek perfection.  I’ll leave that to the so called experts.  After all even the ancient Egyptians in their most perfect pyramid, incorporated a slight imbalance or imperfection, if you will, in the placement of the queens chamber (their call, not mine, ladies) or was it the kings, to mirror more perfectly the true nature of earth and all that inhabits it.  My wife and I sell lilies and still consider ourselves laymen.  We cater to our patrons demands and urge the experts put it…..well….er….uh….lovingly place it in the dark. ;)


Paul
« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 09:53:26 AM by Koi Boi »

Offline Esther

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2008, 12:02:28 PM »
You mean you don't stop the car to retrieve the pop can? In Michigan we cause accidents doing that sort of thing because the can is worth 10 cents if returned. Talk about rednecks!!

But I remember a day when X had left and I was jobless with two kids and I needed 8 cents more to get a gallon of milk. I knew where there was a pop can and so I went to get it and grinned when I was able to purchase the milk.

 

Offline Cedric

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2008, 05:39:29 PM »
One days beauty is worth three to four days joy? Fair enough each to their own.

As far as tin cans go, no I certainly don't aim for them, there is something just a little maniacal about that. If I can I pick em up and put them into the trash can where they belong. I agree with Esther. Each to their own.  {:-P;;

Offline Craig

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2008, 05:52:05 PM »
A large part of the problem is that no one has offered a definition as to what constitutes a “moptop” and without that you really have no defined parameters to guide a discussion.

In as much as I take claim to being the first to apply the term “moptop” to waterlilies and even then specifically to my waterlilies, by default the basic definition is mine to make.  By way of background, there was a gentleman, that although he had never grown a single one of my half ampla hybrids…or even seen one grown for that matter….took to making disparaging comments about what he perceived to be their awkward looks, fickle habits and poor documentation.  Pointing out that he had never grown or seen a single one seemed to anger him and he in one post referred to them as “mopheads”.  I had been looking for a catchy descriptive term and as he was English, I took to calling them “moptops” thinking the reference to the Beatles might amuse him.

So the definitive ‘moptop’ is a half ampla hybrid with ampla being the pollen donor….pure and simple.  I noticed that some half colorata had a similar look, ie ‘Midnight’ and crediting Mr. Pring with being the grandfather of the Moptops the definition expanded a bit to include waterlilies in which the stamen have been transformed into non-functional petaloid stamen with the pollen sac gone and the filament and anther transformed into smaller petals.  So ‘Miami Rose’, ‘Star of Siam’, ‘Blue Aster’, ‘Charlie’s Pride’, ‘Star of Zanzibar’. Etc…..nice but not moptops.  King of Siam would qualify.

So if you want to discuss the performance of moptops, you now have the boundaries.  And at least most of my contributions have been trialed extensively before release in private and public gardens in this country and others.  They are indeed to be found in Asia at least in South Korea, Japan and Malaysia….to be honest, I have actively tried to prevent their introduction into Thailand, as they are the hot bed of counterfeit lilies.  Look at the mess they made of those of the native son Dr. Wasuwat, why should mine fare better?  They have also been trialed in the iwgs waterlily competition…all in all I feel there cultivation is well documented, perhaps you view of the waterlily world is a little too parochial.  They have been proven to perform well on a least four continents and in temperate and tropical climes.  I will say the half ampla handle heat much better than the half colorata but burning in either group is essentially non-existent in the 80-90 F temperature range….an exception possibly being the Thai introduction ‘King of Siam’.

Are the moptops the end all and be all of lilies…..I never have claimed they are, in fact, my nomination for best all around lily would probably be ‘Director George T. Moore’, but how someone that has admittedly never seen or grown a single moptop specimen, proffers  “constructive criticism” is beyond me.  To me, constructive criticism can only be offered by those with experience in dealing with the subject item.

On other notes, the waterlily competition has been around in some form or other for twenty two or three years…at least.  How much longer will it last?  Not much to look at the declining entries. The iwgs and its affiliates are moribund and unless Water Gardeners International decides to salvage some of the iwgs activities, I don’t give it much longer.

And by botanical definition, every waterlily flower is indeed ‘perfect’.  <g>
Craig     SW FL 9B

Don't sweat the petty things....and don't pet the sweaty things.

Offline Joyce

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2008, 06:11:45 PM »
Thank You Craig for that rational definition! (not to mention very valid and logical analysis)
And thanks again for ALL that you do and create!   8)

Nice to see you here, and contributing to logical, objective discussion, and not just telling one what one wants to hear.  O0
I remember when you pointed out that my little white lily was not N. tetragona but N. pygmaea,
and appreciated the correction, and learned something from it.  8)
Peace to all  ... Joyce



Breast Cancer Survivor

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It will never fail you.”
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Offline Kat

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2008, 06:31:46 PM »
Craig--THANK YOU very much for the clarification on which type of lily is a "moptop" & for your detailed information concerning their hybridization & cultivation.  @O@   Always something new to learn.
Kat

There is never enough room for all of the water lilies that I want ;-)

Offline Cedric

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2008, 06:37:34 PM »

And by botanical definition, every waterlily flower is indeed ‘perfect’.  <g>

My apologies Craig if I am unable to do your post justice at this point. But to allow a situation to develop to the extent that it has is not  conducive to a proper objective discussion. If you would move your post to the "hybridising" forum I will certainly feel a lot better about attempting such. I feel there are certainly posters on this thread that can only confuse the issue with subjective and personal issues.

Regarding your conclusion I couldn't agree more. I would add though that by botanical definition not all can be considered entirely perfect as many many man made lilies are indeed infertile, but this would in my humble opinion certainly apply to 99.9% of all "species" in the pure botanical sense of the word.

Cedric

Offline Joyce

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2008, 06:50:51 PM »
Craig, no matter where you post...I'll follow... cuz I wanna read every word...and learn from a genuine water lily developer, grower...expert!   :2thumbs:
Peace to all  ... Joyce



Breast Cancer Survivor

“Study nature, love nature, stay close to nature.
It will never fail you.”
Frank Lloyd Wright

Offline Sean

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2008, 06:57:52 PM »
I would hope that our membership has heard the wishes of Jerry and I and have heeded our request so there would be no reason to allow a situation to develop to the extent that it has which is not conducive to a proper objective discussion.

Feel free to continue this discussion here on this thread, it will be monitored and personal attacks between members WILL NOT BE TOLERATED WHATSOEVER

Individuals have the right to disagree and banter can be fun. Just remember name calling and slanderous statements will be dealt with accordingly.

And a clarification to those who are assuming, Cedric is not Andrew Davis or Zac Lohrenz and he does live in Hong Kong.

Cheers,
Sean
Vancouver BC Zone 8B
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Offline Bonnie

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #27 on: August 07, 2008, 07:30:38 PM »
Cedric I want to thank you......

This is because Craig has again posted on this forum!  Hopefully this is a start of better things to come!!   
Otherwise GREAT to see you here Craig, and hoping that you will continue to join us again.


« Last Edit: August 07, 2008, 07:31:53 PM by Bonnie »

Offline Marie Fisher

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2008, 07:45:58 PM »
This is not to defend or be controversial in any manner, but I feel this needs
saying.  Agree with several of the posts, no plant, or lilie, is 100% perfect.
If you think it is, then you need to stop raising them.  Agree especially
with post said many things  can determine how plant grows from climate,
to potting soil, to kind of fertilizer.  As to mopheads burning in 85 to 90
degrees. Haha!!! I live in Memphis, triple digit readings, heat indices in
110 degree range, high humidity.  Further, I have at least 90% of Craig's
mopheads, and no burns.  King of Siam does burn slightly near the center.
Even dayglow not burning.  What is burning badly are reddish hardies, they
are fried really.  If we like a plant, we cherish it.  And believe me when I
say will continue to cherish every mophead can get my grubby hands on.
I only wish the Aussies did half as well here.  Before spreading rumors of
lilies burning, facts need to be straight in my opinion.  Well, nobody asked
me, but that's my two cents.   And please, let's do nothing to jeopardize
this forum.   Craig, it is great to see you in here again!!!
Marie

Offline Jerry

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Re: Commentary
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2008, 08:02:59 PM »
Craig & Sean  fine posts and well stated. O0
Jerry
Northridge, California  
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