Author Topic: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo  (Read 2904 times)

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Offline pegs pond

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Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« on: August 19, 2008, 07:21:05 AM »
Hi all, okay we are ready for underlayment and liner.  2 questions..........can you cut the underlayment and put it on top of itself to help form it without so many lumps? cut straight line to near bottom and then lay it together like a dart in sewing?.....and it there a direction you are supposed to run the folds in the liner?  tips for getting it as smooth as possible would be appreciated.  Here's the latest photo.
 

Thanks Peg

Offline tranquility

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2008, 11:42:48 AM »
Peg---when putting a square piece of material in a round hole you'll always end up with folds---the trick is to fold them to where they aren't tooo noticable....I like to make many small folds as apposed to a couple of large ones....once the pond is filled up you'll never even notice them.....
Lawanna
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Offline Esther

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2008, 01:53:39 PM »
Yup, even when my son in law, the roofer, pieced the liner in my small pond so it was smooth, there were still bumps. Besides I would never cut into the liner to piece it together. Every time you cut into the liner you risk ANOTHER LEAK...As far as what you do underneath, I'd just overlap strips where there are corners and bends. That's what we did. I have sand so the underlayment wasn't so important. We used old blanket, pieces of carpet, (be careful of used carpet at it might have staples in the edges), and I don't remember what all. I've heard of using wet newspaper but that doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it rot eventually and loose it's affect.

One thing you might want to consider is putting steps in somewhere. I formed two steps, layed a patio block on them and then underlayment and then liner over them. But I had a rock ledge and plant ledge so the steps were easy to place. It is a bear to get in the pond if your legs are short like mine and on top of that, the surface of the liner is slippery. I'm so glad I put in steps. I have a post at the top of the steps too that I hang on to so I don't slip.

Oh and install the liner in the hot sun after it has gotten a chance to warm up. It'll shape better and handle better when it's softish. We put old tires on top of the liner in the bottom of the pond to hold it in place when we got it where we wanted it. Then we put lots of the patio blocks underneath on the plant ledge also to help the sand/soil keep it's shape. We layed more patio blocks, cement blocks, and rocks on the liner to hold it where we wanted it on the ledges until the water was in there.

One last thought, don't let your spouse help to cut away the excess liner with a utility knife. Mine cut where I wanted to put in a bog and we had to do some patching. Also any excess liner can be buried at the edge of the pond and if you have to tweak the sides later a bit, you'll be able to.

Be sure to find level across the top too.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2008, 01:56:19 PM by Esther »

Offline Julles

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2008, 05:04:56 PM »
Good God, don't cut your liner!  For one thing, like Esther said, it will surely leak at some point down the road.  And for another thing, you are bound to want to expand your pond in a year or two, and so will want to reuse the same liner for the larger pond. 

As already stated, just fold under any overlap, and put flagstone or other material on top to disguise it.

Offline pegs pond

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2008, 06:12:00 PM »
  Oh ya'll I meant to cut the UNDERLINER, NOT the liner, I am even afraid to put a bottom drain in cuz don't want to cut the liner ANYWHERE...well except hole to skimmer.  You have no idea how much I appreciate your input and help.

 Lawanna thanks for the tip on the little folds as I would have never thought of doing that.

 Esther THANK YOU for the tip on putting in steps and a post.  I am also height challenged (5 ft if I stand real tall) and to top it off I've got balance problems......and have hesitated to tell hubby he will have to climb in the pond and get the plants for me so the steps and a post is a SUPER idea! Do you put the steps on TOP of the liner?  Using blocks?  Now installing the liner in hot sun might be a problem.....this is Washington and we have had our three HOT days for the year, last week...LOL...I was wondering if the plant ledge would need blocks and you answered that for me too!  so back to the store...........AGAIN  :'( 

Julles, I will just fold under the excess liner cuz already thinking of a "bog" next year... shhhhhhhhhhhhh
Peg

todays progress...if ya get sick of photos  or if you see problems PLEASE tell me

Offline mcp

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2008, 08:58:36 PM »
Peg, Looking great! We never get sick of pictures. Keep them showing your progress. Will help many of us!  :)
McKean County Pa. zone 5

Offline Esther

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2008, 06:25:23 AM »
Peg,
What a great project you've got going. We put the cement patio blocks on the plant ledge and steps, then layed the underlayment over it and then the liner. The thought was to keep the ledges smooth/level and hopefully help hold the ledge from caving in from the weight of my foot when I stepped on it. I thought about putting them on top of the liner but was afraid the sharp edges would cut through the liner. We have sand. When I step on them, I still try to place my foot to the back of the step, I'm so afraid of the edges caving in or slipping off the step as they are algaed up of course. That's why I have a post at the top edge to try to hang on to when I get in. If you think about it, how dangerous of us to be trying to maneuver down very slippery steps and have rocks at the edge, so if we fall, and are alone, we could drown and nobody but the fish would know.

Offline Julles

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2008, 09:02:31 AM »
Oh, the waterfall / stream is huge, and looks wonderful.  You MUST show pics when it's all done.

Peg, are you sure you want those gently sloping sides on your pond?  There have been LOTS of threads on A.P. about raccoons and herons, etc. simply walking into ponds to get at your plants and fish.  If the sides drop straight down, it's much harder for them to get at your precious fish.

And heed what Esther says - My enlarged pond is only 5 months old, and I was in it the other day, and even on the level bottom, it's algae-covered and slick and dangerous.  I also have a step to get in (but I sometimes put an upside-down 5 gallon bucket in to step down onto), and I sure was grabbing the retaining wall about 2' away from the pond, to have something to hold on to.

Offline pegs pond

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2008, 10:54:18 AM »
Jules thanks for the compliment and thought, I didn't realize when everyone was saying no plant shelves cuz of critters that they meant straight down on the sides! just thought it was no plant shelves, am rethinking now about going down just straight as that does make sense (we DO have raccoons) and NOW I see how you can put in something to put the plant on.  I was thinking now how the heck do you put an upside down pot or something to sit a plant on if sides are sloped!  Not a math major so another question if I dig them straight down will I still have enought liner or will I have to make it a little less deep?  Is optimal depth 24?  Esther, you have plant shelves would you do them again? 
Thanks again, Peg

Offline tinkster

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2008, 09:00:45 PM »
woohooo I love watching a new build and yours is gonna be great!  I have plant shelves.  I originally had sloped edges and a "beach" with peebles that looked really great but was a bugger to clean and allowed critters easy excess in .  I pulled my liner up and dug out amost straight down sides in most of mine but left a small area where dogs could get out since  my doxies love to fish :).  I am not sure whether I would do shelves again or not.. I love them as mine is mainly a water garden for lilies/plants but now that my koi are getting so big, I could really use more deeper areas and less planting areas :)  anyway.. keep the pictures coming!

tinkster

Offline Julles

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2008, 10:36:03 AM »
Koi need at minimum 36" depth, and 48" is better.  Of course, many of ours (including mine) are doing just fine with shallower ponds.  My pond is 30" with one 3'x3' section at 36".  My goal was the whole thing at 36" but we hit clay at 30", and the guys just couldn't keep chopping through that - esp since I was paying them by the hour, plus my fish were stressed in tiny holding tanks until the new pond got dug.

Part of the reason is that koi develop their muscles by swimming up and down, not side to side, and they can only do that in a deeper pond.  Of course, if you are not showing fish, and don't care a diddle about muscular fish, who cares?  Another reason for the depth is to keep water temperature fairly stable.  That, in my mind, is more important than developing Mr. Atlas type fish.

You could devote one end of the pond to have shelves, and let that be your lily / plant area, and the rest with straight down sides.  Of course, that makes the liner folding all the more intricate.

My pond's sides go straight down, with one end a shelf at 24".   The lilies and other objects in the middle of the pond sit on milk crates, which are quite sturdy, and which I have cut some of the "X" things out of, to make enough room for the koi to swim through, and provide hiding places. 



Offline pegs pond

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2008, 02:34:26 PM »
Oh Tink!  You have doxies too?  I have two girls, red and getting on in years (15 & 13) and they are the loves of my life!  Not sure if Peanut will stll want to fish but we visited a friend with a small pond and I looked out to see her front feet in looking very intently with the "hunting" tail in the air watching her fish!  I about stroked!  Got her before she got a fish.  She's not keen on swimming though so don't think she will venture in this one.

Hubby is out leveling the coping shelf in the light rain!  It's supposed to be nice and warm this weekend so we want to be ready to put the liner in.  I think I'll go out and cut the sides straight down.  Ohhh gosh I hope I have enough liner!  May leave one deeper shelf on the side but will cut down more to it.

Oh Jules, I had decided to just have goldfish but went to the fish store yesterday and saw the koi and they are soooo pretty! (not to mention seeing and reading about the ones on here!) And the small ones aren't very expensive. ($5.00)  AND I bought a book on water gardening and they were talking about koi being friendly and easily taught.  BUT I have also read about them eating everything in sight!  I'm confused!  The book also said if you get them when they are small and NEVER feed them they won't eat the plants and the next sentence says they are easily trained with food and very friendly???   My pond is only going to be 24 inches deep and if I'm going to cut down the sides I'm worried about the liner still fitting as it is!  LOL  I bought 25 ft of taping stuff when I got the liner guess I could buy another large piece and put them together.......ohhhh I think hubby would kill me!  I could maybe make a small deeper area under the waterfall.  Ohhhh decisions!  and I thought the hard part about this was gonna be the digging!  ::)

Oh sun is out!  yippppeeeee!  Thanks again you are a fantastic resource, keep the suggestions and comments coming!
Peg

Offline Esther

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2008, 04:40:37 PM »
Avoid putting pieces together if you can. I'm not saying it's not possible but to me it's tempting fate to have pieces stuck together. If you do, put a patch on both sides so that if it doesn't stick on one side maybe it'll make up on the other side.

I would do ledges again readily but mine are on two sides going round maybe only a little over half of the pond. Because I have ledges, my lilies get a head start being in shallow warmer water. Then later when they have begun to blossom, I sink them down.

My pond is 24" at one end and 30" at the end where the skimmer sits, (by the way on a ledge) and the end where the deicer sits in the winter and closest to electricity. Consider where your electricity will be. Don't restrict your electricity to one spot. When you get to decorating around the pond, you'll think of all kinds of things you want to light, spray, fountains, filter etc.  I even ran a radio on a talk channel for a while when I was having trouble with critters at night.

I've had my oldest Koi 6 years and some of the rest are the same size as Blue. He was also a $2-$3 fella and seems healthy and eats well. I have a few that cost more but they aren't any more special. Well maybe the butterfly ones. I kinda like them better. Poor BLue.

Offline bunny56lbc

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2008, 06:30:30 PM »
You're pond is looking good , peg ! And a Nice big waterfall too  O0
I cannot wait to see the pictures of it when you get it all done .

bonnie

Offline Julles

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2008, 10:55:57 AM »
A $5 koi will grow, believe me.  And yes, most of them become very tame, depending on how you treat them.  Some people even pet their fish.  Mine just throng the surface when I feed them.  There will be others who are more shy, though.  Varied personalities, just like people.

I keep my lilies in large baskets made of mesh sewn around PVC frames.  Water flows through but the koi can't get in.  Goldfish don't hurt plants as much as koi. 

Rubbish about "don't feed them and they will never hurt your plants."  fish will eat whatever they need to keep themselves alive.  If you don't feed them, then yur water plants look all the more attractive!

Offline Jonna

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2008, 11:34:59 PM »
Wakin are a good compromise fish, they are active and have personalities and will zoom to you if you feed them but they don't get as big and none I've heard of have eaten lilies.  They will nose around in the pots but if you have rocks on them they won't hurt them.  They are a type of goldfish and in general, goldfish are sturdier and less prone to disease.

Offline Esther

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 06:04:08 AM »
The split tailed fish were the first ones to go when the heron visited. I think it was because they couldn't swim as fast as the Koi. Now all I have are Koi. Bit by bit the heron took all the split tailed ones.

Offline CT

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2008, 08:01:46 AM »
We've had herons but given enough cover the Wakins are quick enough to hide. Steep sides also help. The koi make big targets and end up stabbed through more often than not from what I've seen. I also like goldfish because they don't have KHV issues like koi and while they don't have real exotic colors the true red and white wakins rival the Kohaku koi IMHO. Wakins are ideal, smaller, friendlier and easier to deal with in my experience. Goldfish breed like crazy though. That's their downside.
Kay

Offline pegs pond

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2008, 10:38:17 AM »
 :swear:  I made a mistake on the liner!  Didn't figure in the rise of the waterfall! everything fits perfectly except that!  Spent all night pondering whether to try to seam a piece to it or just go buy another liner!  So after calling every home depot in a 100 miles radius I have located some in stock.  I did go online to the stores that were reccommended but with shipping I would only save about $20 and have to wait to get it...I am NOT good at waiting....I want to SEE my finished project.   Oh well I will have extra liner for the stream and will put a smaller pond at the top now.... :)

Here's the latest photos.  As you see I decided to do plant shelves but the first one will be at 12 inches deep with as straight of sides as I could get it this darned pumice.  Deepest part is aprox 28 inches.

Peg



Offline Esther

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2008, 12:59:53 PM »
What a job. You're not the first person to misfigure your liner size.

Offline pegs pond

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2008, 10:23:50 PM »
Hi all, well Esther I took your advice and went and got a bigger liner.  I am glad I did as it allowed me to use the other one on the stream and gives a lot more to backfill and cover up the hill with.  Also I found 3 shubbies at a nice clean pet store (that took some looking to find!)
 @O@ WE HAVE WATER!  tomorrow the plumbing gets hooked up and start hauling rocks into the stream.  It's getting there folks!  Thanks to all the help and support from you!  Please keep the suggestions coming.
Peg

Offline perplexed ponder

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2008, 04:33:54 AM »
Wow Peg! I had been on vacationa dn am trying to get caught up. I hadn't seen this post. What an awesome pond that is going to be!!

You didn't have a mistake, you had a design change! Now you will have a bonus pond, how great is that?

I totally understand not being able to wait. Post pics as soon as it's all up and going please!!
Kathy

Offline KatFish

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2008, 07:19:55 AM »
Looking good!

Offline Esther

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2008, 04:10:49 PM »
I see light at the end of the tunnel. Hang in there.

Offline pegs pond

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2008, 12:19:30 AM »
 @O@  It WORKS!  It's awesome!  Got all plumbing hooked up today and skimmer and waterfall working.  I can't hardly believe it!  I've spent 3 days potting plants (thanks so much Lawanna!) and I got too many marginals so there is a side that has extra liner and I'm trying to figure if we can dig it out a bit for a little boggy area....LOL....got two Shubbies in there...about 4 inchers that are currently hiding under a rock I had put in to hold a fold on the liner so it will have to stay there...now on to the rocks!  yippppeeee!  I can't thank you all enough for support and input.
Peg


will fix the wrinkles on the waterfall tomorrow

Offline KatFish

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2008, 10:31:18 AM »
 @O@ Looking great!!!!  Keep us updated!

Offline Julles

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2008, 01:52:42 PM »
Wow, that is SUPER!  Wish I had a pond that size.  how many gallons will it be?

And, please post a pic of the finished falls, pond, and plants!

Offline miguynmkoi

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Re: Underlayment and Liner questions w/latest photo
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2008, 04:33:29 PM »
So far so great!  I've been away on vacation too and seeing all the work you've done is amazing.  Wonderful accomplishments!  Keep us posted!

 

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