Green Frogs and winterizing pond

[flagg6805]

Hi All! I've never had a real pond before but this summer I set up a small 60gal outdoor pond using a plastic mold I bought at Home Depot. The pond was going great but now it's getting to be cold (I live in southern NY) and I'm wondering what to do for the winter. I know I can bring the plants and fish in and drain the pond, but my concern is with the green frogs that have made a home of the pond. What should I do with them to help them survive the winter? If anybody can help me out, the frogs and I would greatly appreciate it.

thanks!
-ricardo

[Teresa]

I don't think that they'll survive in your pond, so it would be kinder to drain it and force them to fine a better winter home.

[karen J]

When you say "Southern NY", does that mean that you are still "upstate"?

I was born & raised in NY, but it was LI- which is a completely different climate than that of anything north of NYC.

I now live in Northern Illinois, which is a similar climate to the North NY. Maybe not as much snow. 

The thing with Green frogs is that they are fragile. They like a lot of oxygen, and the lack of it in the winter can kill them easily. I've seen terrible frog kills in my pond- sometimes 25 frogs or more. Usually, the frogs are found completely unresponsive (dead) and belly-up. Sometimes they are found with disgusting, white "stuff" in the mouth area. Warming up the suspect frog to room-temp will confirm the 'diagnosis' of death. That is a dangerous process, because if the frog is fine then you now have a pet frog that you are responsible for, for the entire winter.
Keeping a hole in the ice (with a deicer) is the logical thing to do, but it does not always confer survival. A dome/greenhouse usually helps tremendously, but nothing is guaranteed.

Is there a large body of water nearby where you can bring the frogs? That is no gaurantee either, but at least the frogs aren't rotting in your pond.

[barb]

Uh-oh!  I have a lot of frogs that have made our little pond here in SW Connecticut home.  It's been quite cold in the last week or so, and the usual dozen or so frogs have suddenly disappeared.  I thought they dug a hole in the ground and hibernated for the winter, though?  If not, I will have to worry about dead frogs in my pond, too.  And my fish are in the pond.   

[andrew davis]

If you were to rig up a simple sturdy tent of two layers of plastic sheet over the pond, when the sun shone on it and warmed the air within, that would do a lot to thaw the pond area and increase the frogs chance of survival enormously in the pond.

That daily thaw might well stop the pond from sealing over except in severe arctic spells, even then, with just a few hours sun, that bit of cover would stop the cold air from freezing much within, slowing down the loss of ground warmth

As the hours of Spring daylight lengthen, take care it does not get too hot within....

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[Teresa]

If you were to rig up a simple sturdy tent of two layers of plastic sheet over the pond, when the sun shone on it and warmed the air within, that would do a lot to thaw the pond area and increase the frogs chance of survival enormously in the pond.

That daily thaw might well stop the pond from sealing over except in severe arctic spells, even then, with just a few hours sun, that bit of cover would stop the cold air from freezing much within, slowing down the loss of ground warmth

I sincerely doubt that anything short of a heated greenhouse is going to keep frogs alive in a 60 gallon preformed pond in New York, but then I don't live in New York.  (Neither does Andy who's giving this advice.)

Karen is talking about terrible frog kills in a much larger pond in a similar zone.  She's right - the frogs have a much better chance in a larger body of water, like a lake or huge pond.

Barb - how big is your pond?  If it's big enough and deep enough, the frogs have a chance.  If it's not, it's best to relocate them.  Frogs do not dig a hole in the ground for winter - at least not green frogs, leopard frogs or bullfrogs . . . . common pond frogs.

[andrew davis]

I get just the same weather systems that affect Northern climates. Alternating with Southerly systems so it may go from sixties one week to well below freezing the next

-10°f record lows, below freezing for a week or more at a time. Ice storms that rip down hundreds of thousands folks power lines. Maybe blizzards, drifting snow.

IF I go look at an unprotected pond, it may have four inches of ice. In protected areas that catch the sun daily.... No ice within the protected area, it melted, the thermometer might read 50°f during the day, going down close to freezing overnight when the air temps are 15°f

A sturdy reliable clear cover to catch the sun does a very, very effective job of protecting small or shallow ponds.

To the extent where small turtles, tender plants and tropical waterlilies, seeds reliably overwinter outdoors in 6" deep waters under protected areas

As long as the small or shallow pond is below ground, gets a good chance to thaw during most days, solar warmth is a very effective and simple way to keep sub zero air off the water and keep ground warmth within, minimising ice layers, thawing the water surface daily

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[Joyce]

Ricardo, I have lived in both NC and NY.
We're living on LI, NY now. I am a LI, NY native.

There is NO WAY to RATIONALLY compare the weather systems of NY and NC.
Nope. Not the same. At all.

So please be careful who you take your advice from.

I have a tiny 50 gallon plastic preformed pond (I call it my pondsai) here on the east end of LI.
I put a floating de-icer in it and my frogs do just fine.
The de-icer keeps the surface open, and heats only the immediate area closest to the heater.
It does not affect the bottom layer of water.
Good luck with your pond and frogs!

Another GREAT aspect of the pond de-icer that I use is that the birds sit on the top of it and drink around the edges.

[Teresa]

I get just the same weather systems that affect Northern climates. Alternating with Southerly systems so it may go from sixties one week to well below freezing the next

-10°f record lows, below freezing for a week or more at a time. Ice storms that rip down hundreds of thousands folks power lines. Maybe blizzards, drifting snow.

IF I go look at an unprotected pond, it may have four inches of ice. In protected areas that catch the sun daily.... No ice within the protected area, it melted, the thermometer might read 50°f during the day, going down close to freezing overnight when the air temps are 15°f

A sturdy reliable clear cover to catch the sun does a very, very effective job of protecting small or shallow ponds.

To the extent where small turtles, tender plants and tropical waterlilies, seeds reliably overwinter outdoors in 6" deep waters under protected areas

As long as the small or shallow pond is below ground, gets a good chance to thaw during most days, solar warmth is a very effective and simple way to keep sub zero air off the water and keep ground warmth within, minimising ice layers, thawing the water surface daily

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

Here we go again. 

According to Andy's own website, he lives in NC. 

25 miles South East of Raleigh, quite close to U.S.70, North Carolina

Check any USDA zone map and that would place him in either a 7b or 8a hardiness zone.  He has a pretty mild winter most years.

The only area of New York State that gets anywhere near that is Long Island.  Most of the rest of New York State is in zones 3 to 5 with just the edges near the water hitting zone 6.  If Ricardo is in Southern New York state and not on the island, he's most likely a zone 5.

There is no way that anyone can honestly say the weather and conditions are similar enough to be comparable.
 

[karen J]

I get just the same weather systems that affect Northern climates.

You have got to be kidding.

[andrew davis]

>>There is no way that anyone who is not completely delusional or a pathological liar can honestly say the weather and conditions are similar enough to be comparable.

It can get to -10°f here. It can get to -20°f in New York. Severe arctic conditions are just as likely to roll down here as New York though distance might make a 10°f difference.

The difference is fairly academic to animals and plants that die at about 32°f

With simple effective protection plants and critters can cope with such severe freezes

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[Teresa]

It got to -6 degrees in Raleigh in 1985.  The average winter lows for the area are:

December    33 degrees
January       30 degrees
February      32 degrees

So yes, frogs can survive in shallow ponds with 'simple effective protection' - because you only need to manage to keep the water a couple degrees warmer than the weather provides.

Check the weather records here . . . .

http://weather.yahoo.com/climo/USNC0558_f.html

Look up the same info for Albany, New York and you'll find the record low there is -28 . . . . that's 28 degrees below zero and 60 degrees below freezing.  Their average lows in winter are:

December   20 degrees
January      13 degrees
February     16 degrees

http://weather.yahoo.com/climo/USNY0011_f.html


Now, I get the same weather systems as North Carolina - usually before they do - and all I have to say is thank heavens they don't provide the same weather conditions as they do in New York cuz this girl doesn't like cold even a little bit!!!

[Joyce]

So it doesn't regularly get down to -10 in NC...anywhere.

Thanks for the FACTS Teresa!

[andrew davis]

Oh, and don't forget, the Green frogs distribution (Rana Clamitans melanota) goes waaaaay further North right up through Canada, so you are probably looking at a critter that has it's own 'anti freeze' mechanism to cope with prolonged hibernation (something to check)

>>The thing with Green frogs is that they are fragile.

This information is more or less useless, the opinion of throwing an critter of unconfirmed identity into an environment likely to be more hostile (herons? pike? bullfrogs?) than a sheltered garden pond is 'doubtfull' at best.

Record lows at THIS location are -10°f. New York record lows are in the - twenties. Hardly a lie, which is what you choose to imply. The difference is more less academic to the Green Frog which is native to both locations (without protection), typically in shallow waters. Right up to the North of Canada

That you could not even bother to confirm the identity of the green frog, it's known distribution, the hazards likely to be the consequence of releasing animals into unknown environments is downright shoddy. But then it is a habit of yours.

>>Teresa is right....delusional AND a pathological liar.
When was the last time it got to -10 in NC? 

January 1985, weather.com statistics for THIS location. The same source indicates NY lows are in the minus 20°f range. Yet again, you chose to be abusive and make false, misleading statements.
 
Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[Joyce]

Who cares about record lows anyway.
It is not pertinent to the situation....truly 'useless' information.
We need to talk about average lows...
not something that happens once a century, or even less often.

And Karen, you are right, Green Frogs are fragile,
that is why green frogs tend to be the first to suffer,
when pond conditions become less than perfect.

And if you go by pertinent info, and that being average temps,
you can see from the FACTS Teresa posted,
that the climates between NC and NY can NOT be compared to as 'similar'. EVER!

When in fact, from my experience residing in NC,
(in andyyy's neighborhood near route 70)
RARELY does it get below freezing in the winter enough to maintain any ice depth for very long, when daytime temps get above freezing most days.
You can check the FACTS that Teresa posted to corroborate this.

This can not be said about NY winters....even on LI.
On mainland NY, it can go for months without rising above freezing,
and ice depths stay thick enough for months, enough to go iceskating.
We are talking AVERAGE temps...not...

ooohhhhhhh.... do you remember when...back in '85...

[karen J]

Exactly. That's why scientists study green frogs, since their fragility is unquestioningly the best bio marker available.

It is truly the height of self-centered human self-importance to suggest that putting a frog back where it likely came from to begin with would be a death sentence for the frog, when the frog would die anyway in a frozen, unnatural, 60 gallon ice cube.
Frogs of the North do not intentionally seek out puddles to spend their winter vacation.

It blows the mind that some people truly do not understand nature. Or weather.

We have not heard back from the original poster for a clarification of species. Perhaps we have skeeered him away.

[Jerry]

I hope Not Karen.  if he is new to our board he may think "heated" discussions are common here. They are not.   

[Craig]

Andrew,

It pains me to have to point out some inaccuracies with your take on Green frog biology.

For starters, the Green frog is correctly Rana clamitans ( species names are always properly written in lower case).  The name you used is for a distinct subspecies, so while all Green frogs are R. clamitans, not all are in the subspecies melanota.

And the range of said subspecies is not "through Canada" or the "north of Canada".  It ranges into southeast Canada...a milder clime even by Canadian standards.

I surmise you have little training in the life sciences...as exemplified by your capitalization of species names, that will set any biologist's teeth on edge<g>...so I don't reasonable expect you to know the biggest flaw in your 'defense'.

While it is true that the genetic entitity know as R. clamitans ranges from Florida to se Canada, individual populations are not interchangeable.  The hand of evolution is hard at work here in the form of genetic drift or speciation and individuals at distant ends of the range do not fair well when transposed.  The differences are so pronounced that studies of a Green frog cousin, Rana pipens have shown that the ability to breed successfully between distant populations is declining.  Individuals from the extremes of the range can muster no better than about a 10% fertility rate.

So it is not reasonable to expect R. clamitans from Clayton, NC , southern NY and se Canada to have identical abilities to survive winter as they have not been exposed to the same selective pressure and there is not a free exchange of genetic material.

Inability to adapt to drastic change in range within a species, is not uncommon.  Move a Red maple ( Acer rubrum) from south to north and it dies...so result going from north to south.

So no, the difference of ten degrees and more importantly the duration of temperatures is far from "academic". 

[Craig]

Sorry Jerry, but I think "heated" discussions, if they are civil, factual and without personal attacks are beneficial.  Life ain't like Mr. Roger's neighborhood and if a forum becomes all 'rainbow, lollipops and sunshine' not only is it boring, but in the bigger picture it means no substantive information is being exchanged.

[Sean]

I agree with Craig here... Heated discussions are just fine, especially when facts come to the surface and people are able to learn something. What is not tolerated is name calling which I believe is what Jerry meant to say.

Cheers,
Sean

[Teresa]

I'm sorry too Jerry, if this 'heated discussion' scared away a new poster.  I think it would have been far worse to let a brand new ponder kill a dozen frogs in a 60 gallon ice cube.  I think when we have people posting things that are inaccurate, incorrect and dangerous to the life we choose to attract by building these ponds we have a RESPONSIBILITY to correct the misinformation and lies.  I hope you and the new poster understand that the heat comes from passion and if we didn't all have that, we wouldn't be here.

I guess I'm the one guilty of name calling here tho it wasn't meant as a name for a person, just a name for the actions.  I've edited the post, but I'm unable to edit the quotes of that post.

[Joyce]

I agree Teresa Karen, and Craig.

Especially agree with this:

I think when we have people posting things that are inaccurate, incorrect and dangerous to the life we choose to attract by building these ponds we have a RESPONSIBILITY to correct the misinformation and lies.  I hope you and the new poster understand that the heat comes from passion and if we didn't all have that, we wouldn't be here.

AMEN!

[Jerry]

good comments indeed.  Yes heated doesn't include name calling.  Heated is good  passion is even better   If you read my welcome and mission statement we clearly invite discussion, both heated and passionate!

[Rocmon]

Around here it was the "flood of '82" (Love Creek) or the "earthquake of '89" (Loma Prietta).

I must say I'm surprised by the statement "The difference is fairly academic to animals and plants that die at about 32°f"—this by a guy who despises science that doesn't concur with his own beliefs.

The problem isn't what you say, we all can say foolish things on occasion, it's the dogged determination to try to make everyone believe what may not be true. Say what you think, and let others offer their opinion. You are not a religion and even if you were, there are others with different views... IT'S OK. You don't have to try to make everyone think what you say is the only truth.

Here in central California we get arctic weather fronts too.     
Instead of snow levels with accumulation at 0' elevation that can occur in Oregon or Washington state, ours may be more like 1000'–2000' (rare) or more (during very very cold fronts.) Same cold front, different latitude. I'm glad someone can cite -10 degrees once. I remember as a child it snowed in San Jose once—1964 I think it was. I wouldn't build a green house for a pond if I lived there because it snowed there once...

Lets see were talking about a pond in upstate? NY that contains 60 gallons? The conditions there are like those in NC?

I believe Darwin has a theory about frogs who try to over winter in a 60 gallon pond in harsh conditions. I would suspect intervention would be a way to keep the less intelligent of the species continuing to reproduce... being  as it only snows here every so often I won't make any suggestions... other than suggest a bigger pond, ... always ... a bigger pond.

[karen J]

Ahhh, Rocmon,... "... it's the dogged determination to try to make everyone believe what may not be true"

A Dogma. Dogmas defend themselves.

"I would suspect intervention would be a way to keep the less intelligent of the species continuing to reproduce... "

Have you read "The Covenant of The Wild"? The author (Stephen Budiansky) delves into the theory that our most loved (and eaten) species (sheep, cattle, goat, poultry, etc) would not be here today if not for them choosing a doomed life with us instead of complete extinction. A symbiotic relationship, if you will.
Of course, that precludes saving one or two lone frogs. Frogs do not benefit humankind, unless one considers that they may be feeding a higher-order food crop (birds, snakes, etc- tastes like chicken). Though the legs are tasty with a pan sauce.

[andrew davis]

>>Who cares about record lows anyway.
It is not pertinent to the situation....truly 'useless' information.

Record lows clearly indicate the potential severity of freezing temperatures at a location. Who cares? folk who have plants, critters that have to cope with severe conditions. What a sloppy statement, 'who cares'

Record lows and record highs are very, very useful. It sure tells me what is going to be at risk and what level of protection is required to ensure safety

I sure notice that a simple structure over a shallow or small pond can keep it ice free, and plants and critters survival rates are vastly improved when temperatures are going to be 15°f every night for a week, when ice has gone 4" thick on unprotected positions, to consider what else might work when temps can possibly go to -10°f

>>I surmise you have little training in the life sciences...as exemplified by your capitalization of species names, that will set any biologist's teeth on edge<g>...so I don't reasonable expect you to know the biggest flaw in your 'defense'.

In English it is the norm to capitolise names, and a personal quirk to like finding an excuse to use the shift key to capitolise names and titles.

Feel free to prefer to write on clay tablets, practise archane languages, irrelevant academic quirks, make crop circles and any other primitive custom relevant to your peculiar culture. Staying vaguely relevant to the topic might be one for Craig to master...

>>For starters, the Green frog is correctly Rana clamitans ( species names are always properly written in lower case).  The name you used is for a distinct subspecies, so while all Green frogs are R. clamitans, not all are in the subspecies melanota.
>>And the range of said subspecies is not "through Canada" or the "north of Canada".  It ranges into southeast Canada...a milder clime even by Canadian standards.

The name is specified 'Green Frog, Rana Clamitans Melanota'  in the Paterson Field guide series, sponsored by the National Audobahn Society and the National Wildlife Federation. By all means go dispute the identity and hardiness of that frog with folk that know better than you (in Zolfo Springs, Florida, might as well be Mars). Craig

The distribution map clearly indicates the Green frogs range goes substantially further North and West than the Great Lakes latitude and logitude (certainly a tad colder than NY and NC), so go argue with the Canadians over there that they are obliged to be considered now in the balmy 'South East' of Canada by Craig's personal decree, and that the 'Green Frog' has suddenly been decreed 'weak'

>>I think when we have people posting things that are inaccurate, incorrect and dangerous to the life we choose to attract by building these ponds we have a RESPONSIBILITY to correct the misinformation and lies

Joyce, within this thread you have chosen to state deliberate lies... (calling me a pathological liar, with zero evidence to prove it) made false statements... (eg 'Who cares about record lows anyway')
 
You also have ZERO evidence for claims such as being a 'professional artist' E.g. no significant employment in any professional capacity within that industry, how can you possibly be considered responsible to do anything 'correct'

Oh, and if anyone was to consider taking anything Joyce states seriously, make sure you ask for some relevant verification, track record, portfolio, credentials, check references, sources, the usual professional caution... The last time I did, all I got was an abusive offensive e-mail (on file), threatening to slander me to anyone that would listen

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[karen J]

But then it is a habit of yours.

Who is calling who a liar?

[andrew davis]

—this by a guy who despises science that doesn't concur with his own beliefs

On what basis do you make this claim. Why do you confuse the difference between a belief, and someone in the habit of measured observations that can be verified...

>>The difference is fairly academic to animals and plants that die at about 32°f

This is fairly obvious whether temperatures go to 15°f, -10°f, -20°f, they are all well below freezing and the plant, critter is dead, dead, dead exposed to all three temperatures.

With effective protection, that is a different matter. I see small frogs, turtles, coping in ice free waters, in buckets, shallow ponds, containers under covers through days, weeks of sub zero temps. Hardly a 'belief'

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html
 

[andrew davis]

Karen, Teresa made an abusive, derogatory comment. With no supporting evidence

>>Teresa is right....delusional AND a pathological liar

Joyce stated that was correct, without any supporting evidence
(aka a false, unsubstantiated statement)

~ Bear in mind I have noticed Joyce is in the habit of making false unsubstantiated claims (claims to be a professional artist, with no significant employment in the industry, no evidence of a folio as evidence of such an employment)
~ Making deliberately false and misleading statements
(eg photographs I take are of other folks ponds, that seeds I list on ebay have false descriptions)
~ Being downright abusive, to threaten slander when asked what her professional credentials are.
(abusive e-mail on file)

So much for claims to be 'professional' and competent to judge other folks 'ethics'

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[Jerry]

After having spent 22 years (part time) as an Los Angeles instructor in graphice and Sign Painting.  I know a little about graphic arts.  I have had the privilege of viewing much of Joyce's art.  it is first class