Author Topic: lily pics.  (Read 4370 times)

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Offline turtlemike

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lily pics.
« on: February 03, 2009, 09:52:44 AM »
Miami rose.

Offline Sunbeam56

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 10:25:26 AM »
Lovely!
Looks something like my "fool pink". :)

Offline turtlemike

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 10:39:12 AM »
Nice, is that one of your seedlings?

Offline Sunbeam56

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 10:40:05 AM »
No, its a lily I bought because I liked it, and lost the tag. Don't know what its given name is. :)

Offline turtlemike

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 11:55:26 AM »
Do you think it might be a Leopardess.           

Offline Teresa

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2009, 11:04:39 AM »
Do you think it might be a Leopardess.           

Leopardess is blue . . . . Lou's pic:


Offline turtlemike

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 02:53:17 PM »
I was going by the dark heavily variegated leaves and the flower shape more than precise flower color since different cameras and conditions will often show different colors in different pics.    I was throwing that idea out there off of the top of my head. I didn't go to any books or anything.    I've never had a leopardess but I like dark variegated leaves.    I have no strong opinion as to what fool pink is but I'll keep it in mind when I get back into reading my Perry Slocum books and see if I can figure it out.   I kind of like figuring out what a plant is.   You have to do it every time you get a new plant anyway so you might as well enjoy the puzzle.

Offline Teresa

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 03:01:36 PM »
It's a very bad idea to improperly identify waterlilies on an open forum because newbies often take those ID's as the positive ID and then go trade or sell the lily with that name.  There is one trader who has made quite a bit of money off falsely named waterlilies.

Seems to me that it is very difficult to positively identify a lily from pictures or a book.  It also seems to me that if you have an unidentified lily, then giving it a name like "fool pink" is a much better idea than mis-identifying it as something that it is not.  I don't think the real hybridizers like to have their names applied to lesser lilies or vice versa . . . isn't that the point of the Truly Named program?

Offline turtlemike

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 04:22:38 PM »
I wholeheartedly agree.       I hate mixed up waterlily identification from way before there was truly named.  I've spent hundreds of dollars on falsely named waterlilies from very many sources, to many to name.  Some of them from a person considered by most to be an acknowledged expert in the field.   So I don't even fully trust truly named varieties or acknowledged experts until I check it with Perry Slocums encyclopedia of waterlilies and lotuses and his newer book, species cultivars and new hybrids and compare it with all other similar plants that could be confused with it.     And I could still be wrong.       For instance 2 years ago I purchased a truly named plant that was supposed to be Woods blue goddess.   And on close examination it turned out to be Lone Star.   An easy mistake to make since they are SO similar, both are ampla hybrids and have only 2 subtle differences.      Anybody could have a falsely named waterlily even an "expert".     It is WAY more difficult to properly identify some lilies by pictures or books than other lilies.     some are very easy to identify especially plants that are very unique in many traits like James Brydon.   While others may be different in only one or two subtle ways like the subtle differences between Woods Blue Goddess  and Lone Star.                 I don't think I identified fool pink as anything. What I did was ask if she thought it MIGHT be leopardess.            Misnamed pictures on open forums will happen now and then and good people like you will call us on it and they will be corrected on open forums.     I don't know what to do about newbies except to try to show them the true way and hope they see the light.     As for the many unscrupulous dealers I say educate the newbies and hope the bad guys go out of business.     hopefully that will be the result of the truly named program and Victoria Adventure,,, and American ponders!

Offline turtlemike

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 04:30:59 PM »
Lone Star,       purchased as a truly named   Woods Blue Goddess.

Offline Teresa

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 04:36:06 PM »
I don't think I identified fool pink as anything. What I did was ask if she thought it MIGHT be leopardess. 

So it seems reasonable to you that a lily she calls 'fool pink' MIGHT be leopardess which is a blue lily?  And it's ok that you suggested that it might be that lily on an open forum where any newbie could take that name and apply it to their similar looking lily and trade it or sell it?  Especially after you, yourself, have been the victim of just such a mistake of identification?

If you fancy yourself a hybridizer of waterlilies, this should be of utmost importance to you.  Your lilies are all very similar to lilies already on the market and surely you don't want them misidentified and traded as someone else's lilies once you release them. 

Offline Craig

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 05:56:06 PM »
Sorry Mike, but I have a few problems with your last post.  For one thing, suggestions of problems from unnamed sources really mean nothing as they could well be private growers with little or no expertise like many found on ebay, say.  And an unnamed "expert" is really not much of a help either.  Did you ever discuss your problems with said sources and said expert?

And as wonderful a source as Perry's first book is, unless you have the RHS color tabs for reference, it isn't a whole lot of help sorting out nuances.  He wanted them used in the second book as well and I was glad when the publisher nixed the idea because they are very difficult to even use.  Terribly difficult actually, it is just such a huge set.  To be more current, you may want to look into the WGI registry, it has many of the new releases in the nearly five years that have passed since the second book was done.

But it is the bit about WBG/Lone Star that I really have to question.  I took a look to see who certifies Wood's Blue Goddess and there are only four members that do so.  I'm one and I don't have Lone Star, Rich Sacher is another and to my knowledge, he doesn't have the lily, but more importantly, he is strictly retail and doesn't ship, I know for a fact that John Loggins at Lone Star Aquatics does not have the lily 'Lone Star' and that leaves Tammie of Aloha Aquatics and she has never mentioned to me that she has it either.  So I have to wonder what certifying member you could have possibly purchased a WBG from that would even be in a position to make that particular mistake?  Timgod, would know better, but I don't believe many of Ken Landon's newer hybrids are even available on the market.  So as you can tell, I don't believe in the least that you possibly have 'Lone Star' and it definitely did not orignate from a certified Truly Named participant as you claim. What is worse, because of what I think is your mistaken ID, a false 'Lone Star' is now out there and if you have shared it at, it is like a virus that spreads and nearly impossible to undo.

You mention two slight differences and while I haven't ever seen 'Lone Star', It is described as a "satiny purple" and as the name implies, 'Wood's Blue Goddess' is blue...or a deep sky blue as Perry puts it.  And a difference in color doesn't strike me as a "subtle" difference.

You are correct that no one is perfect and even a certified dealer can make a mistake, but do you know how the Truly Named program works?  A grower cannot just write Kit and say "Hey, I want to certify such and such a lily".  Diagnostic pictures and provenance must be provided to verify the lily and if there is the slightest doubt, it is then reviewed by experts.  For instance, any question on Winch lilies ( or my lilies) would go to me and Winch's daughter Noelene.  John Loggins ( Dr. Strawn's farm manager) and James Knock ( has the largest complete collection of Strawn stock from Dr. Strawn) would decide on Strawn cultivars.  So it is not general experts deciding, but those most familiar with the lily in question.

And when a mistake is made, or you feel there is one, the customer can ask the grower for a correction or take it to a review by the Truly Named experts?  Did you ever attempt to address you problem?

I have to suggest that what you see as mistakes might in fact be subtle differences displayed by the same cultivar in different climates, seasons and growing media and not always different lilies.  But when I look at your last picture, I don't see purple or the lily pictured in Perry's book as 'Lone Star'.
Craig     SW FL 9B

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Offline turtlemike

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 07:28:07 PM »
Like I said I don't have a leopardess and I couldn't remember the color, weather it was blue or purple.  I didn't really think it was pink but I didn't even think about her calling it pink.    The pic looks kind of purple on my screen to me.  color is somewhat subjective and again, like I said about cameras and conditions.     And color varies under varying conditions of the plant especially with hardies.  Like I said and I seem to have to say everything twice, I just threw that possibility of leopardess out there because of the leaves and flower structure. I couldn't remember what the flower color was.  I was just trying to be friendly and maybe if I get lucky, help out.   I certainly did not want to generate hostility.   My point about newbies is that a newbie could just as easily see a correctly named lily on an open forum and think that a similar but different lily that they have is that variety and mislabel and sell it as such.          So nobody should show a pic of a plant with ANY name applied to it on an open forum for fear that a newbie might make a mistake?    A newbie might see a picture of one of my plants which may be similar to an untrained eye to a different plant that they have and they might sell it as one of my plants.  So I shouldn't post any pics of my hybrids because some newbie might do something stupid?   I know they are correctly named there my plants.   Newbies will always do these things because they don't know better.  and unscrupulous people will sell misidentified lilies because they are unscrupulous. These are things that are largely out of my control.   I will be VERY careful from now on to not offer any opinions on the identity of any unidentified plants that I am not 100 percent sure of.     Correct identification IS of utmost importance to me but I can only do what I can do.      I was just trying to help out.      Sorry.

Offline tammie

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 08:30:41 PM »
Mike didn't get the Wood's Blue Goddess from me, but I could send you one if you want...And I don't have any Lone Star either.  But none of us are perfect!  All of us make mistakes... (uh...Craig...my friend...my buddy... it's Aloha Pond Plants!) lol  >:(- {:-P;; (love you, and I'm working on a list for the princess!)
Tammie


Offline turtlemike

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 08:33:18 PM »
Hi Craig I didn't say who it was I bought lone star as woods blue goddess from because I didn't want to make a mistake and say the wrong place.      I have it written down in my records somewhere.  Like you said I should have spoken to who I bought it from but I like lone star so I didn't complain.  also you don't know how busy I've been the last 3 or 4 years. I just haven't had time to do every thing I should.  I didn't rely on color descriptions for my ID as lone star.   I cant remember what the distinguishing 2 characters where but I have them written down in my copy of the encyclopedia and I will check and see what they are and I'll get back to you on it.   and next summer I will photograph these distinguishing characteristics and post them so you can see for yourself how I made my determination.  Maybe I'm wrong we'll see.      I didn't name the "expert" because I didn't want to stir up a hornets nest which seems easy to do sometimes.    But I know that people cant always control the people that work for them and mistakes are made.     this was years before truly named.  And there are  other reasons as well that I didn't say who the "expert" was.  And they were notified of there mistakes.  I don't have time for all of this it's way past my bed time. Talk to you later.        Mike.

Offline Desertponder

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2009, 11:44:23 AM »
I really like Miami Rose. I had one this summer. However, I waited too late to pull it from the tank and I believe I lost it.  :(
Shanna
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Offline Craig

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2009, 01:18:32 PM »
Just how is it you feel you are justified in the claim it was a 'Truly Named' lily when you can't even remember from whom you got it?  I checked both certifying and participating members and not a one lists 'Lone Star'.  I also do a google search and again, no vendors were listed as offering it.  So I'd rate the odds of you getting one by design are slim to none...but accident?  The odds aren't that good.  I just find it upsetting that you didn't mind using WGI to register your lily, but then turn around and take a shot at the 'Truly Named' program when you had no recollection of where the lily even came from.

Because you decided stepped in it and kept the lily, rather than owning up to the error (assuming you are right for the moment), you've lost any possibility of valid provenance and on a newer lily with a limited release at best, you should have been able to follow the trail back to Ken Landon with ease.

And two 'subtle differences' you feel are sufficient to make an ID, but not important enough  to remember; yet the biggest unsubtle difference...flower color...you don't feel is important enough to use in an ID?  Here again, I took the liberty of reading the two descriptions and there were five or six parameters that varied ad two...flower color and pad size just aren't all that subtle.

And apologies to you Tammie...but you might want to consider the new name; everyone loves alliteration and if you had gone with it...I wouldn't have to be apologizing.  The princess needs the equipment and discipline/activity.  She's eaten about six bars of Ivory soap.<g>
Craig     SW FL 9B

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Offline Joyce

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2009, 01:24:55 PM »
Thank you Craig for the clarification.  O0 :clap: :2thumbs:
And I hope and pray others here at this forum respect your imput and expertise here as much as I do.
I for one was biting my tongue as hard as I could about this post, and others like it.
Been biting it for a while now.  ::)

As for 'stirring up a hornets nest'...what did you expect?   :doh:

Whenever ANYone tries to pass off a lily as 'named' when they are not sure...or alluding to it's parentage as a seedling...
it's not scrupulous. And it is WRONG.  {-)

« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 01:28:50 PM by Joyce »
Peace to all  ... Joyce



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Offline Teresa

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2009, 02:50:45 PM »
Correct identification IS of utmost importance to me but I can only do what I can do.      I was just trying to help out.      Sorry.

If you can't identify a lily or take the time to identify it correctly, it's better just to say "how pretty" and leave it at that.  It is never helpful when you carelessly misidentify a lily in public.  And it can definitely stir up a hornets nest among people who care.


I for one was biting my tongue as hard as I could about this post, and others like it.
Been biting it for a while now.  ::)

 8-)~ So how much blood you got in your mouth now?   ;)

Offline turtlemike

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2009, 03:47:53 PM »
Hi again I have gotten into my records and now know for sure who I purchased Woods Blue Goddess, actually Lone Star from it was Florida aquatic nurseries.    And you are right Craig they are not registered with truly named.    I sincerely apologize for besmirching the good name of truly named.  I greatly appreciate truly named  and WGI and am sorry for not checking my faulty memory before I posted that statement about it being a truly named plant.   It was 2 years ago and I think at the time I was under the false impression that they were part of truly named.   Maybe since I had never gotten a misidentified lily from them ever before and was always very happy with there lilies my brain just filed it under " good waterlily companies" and it got mixed up with truly named companies in my memory.   O yes I have never sold or given away any of my Lone Star.      I don't quite understand the second part of your second paragraph in your last post. I think what you were saying is that if I had really bought the plant from a truly named business they could have traced the provenance back to ken Landon for me.  But what I bought was supposed to be Woods Blue Goddess.    So they could. if they had been truly named, traced the provenance back to Jack Wood right.           I'm not sure where the 2 differences came from. I guess that there were two that stood out to me at the time as being particularly indicative of the ID as Lone Star.     I think,  now this is my 2 year old memory speaking so don't shoot me if I'm wrong, that it was the fine lines and small dots on the outside of the sepals and the very different leaf, yellow green top with light violet underneath  and prominent light green veins.  But as you said there many not so subtle differences between the two.      I don't blame you for thinking that the flower in the pic was not lone star. It really is an atypical flower for lone star and really looks alot like Woods Blue Goddess.   But keep in mind that lone star is a plant with extremely variable flower color and shape.    I wish I had a digital camera in 07 I could post pictures showing it growing well with it's characteristic tight symmetrical yellow green leaf growth and many flat blooms of many different shades of blue almost to white.  last year I grew a few of them in small pots stuck in the pond just to keep them going that's why I don't have any pics of well developed plants from last year because I didn't have any.   I will grow some in full sun and big fertile pots this year and will post pics when the plants get big.    I stand by my ID of this plant as Lone Star.   And I will send you or anybody else including Ken Landon  a plant so they can judge for themselves.   You said you don't have a Lone Star so here is your chance to get one, or to prove me wrong which ever is the case.      I have had the advantage of siting down next to the fully developed plant with my waterlily encyclopedias and examining it carefully.    It conforms perfectly to the description found there.  And I am confident in it's ID.        I will post another pic of the same plant that shows more of the leaves and flower variability in this post. maybe you will be able to see Lone star in this pic.    Sorry for my bad memory.    Mike.

Offline PondmaninAL

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2009, 05:48:43 PM »
Hey Mike, you wouldn't happen to have any Aztec Arrowheads, would you? {:-P;;
Happy ponding,
Scott o(


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Offline Craig

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2009, 05:59:03 PM »
What I was saying in the paragraph in question is if that you had told the supplier about the mistake, they could have verified that it was 'Lone Star'.  But yes, the best provenance takes the line of possession straight back to the hybridizer...obviously hard to do for some like  Latour Mariliac, but they can be taken back to provable stock.  In my case, I got WBG years ago from Strawn Water Gardens and Dr. Strawn had received his stock from Jack Wood, so by extension ( and vegetative propagation, my stock originated with the hybridizer.

To hopefully help solve the ID of the lily in question, I am friends with the owner of FAN so I'll get hold of him tomorrow and ask if he indeed has 'Lone Star'.  I don't recall ever seeing it there, but then that doesn't mean much.  I'll be sure t let you know what he has to say.  I've never known him to be evasive about his stock or its origin and maybe Landon did ship him some.
Craig     SW FL 9B

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Offline Vickie

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there is a Pink Leopardess
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2009, 06:49:12 PM »
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 06:56:03 PM by Vickie »

Offline Bonnie

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2009, 08:15:20 PM »
A grower cannot just write Kit and say "Hey, I want to certify such and such a lily".  Diagnostic pictures and provenance must be provided to verify the lily and if there is the slightest doubt, it is then reviewed by experts.

Hello Craig,  With this being the case, can I ask how Alexis was ever named because I was told there was doubts ?
Just curious....

Thanks,
Bonnie

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2009, 12:11:49 PM »
Hi again Craig.    Just to make sure you understand ,  I ordered " Woods Blue Goddess " from FAN  and the plant that I received was what I believe to be Lone Star.      They did not have Lone star in there catalog in 07 when I ordered, but they did advertise Woods Blue Goddess.    Maybe, assuming for a minuet that I'm right about it being lone star, maybe they believe that they have Woods Blue Goddess but it's really Lone star.      I really like FAN, I think there tropicals are amazing especially the ones they registered this year and I don't think for a minute that they would deliberately send a mislabeled plant.   If they do have a lone star on the premises, and Woods Blue Goddess then it could just be a mix up.     Then again I could be wrong about my ID of the plant.   I'm sure that I'm not wrong, but that's what everybody says, right?           Mike.

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2009, 01:10:37 PM »
Hey Scott.   I do flint knapping and have made lots of spear points etc.  but I've never heard of an Aztec arrowhead.

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2009, 02:45:03 PM »
There is indeed a lily named 'Pink Leopardess', but the name is 'PINK Leopardess' and must be referred to by the full appellation.  Cultivars are not like the species lilies in which different color forms exist and you need specify pink Capensis or blue  Capensis.  'Leopardess' and 'Pink Leopardess' are completely separate entities and never the twain shall meet.  So when ever a lily is referred to as 'Leopardess' it is by default invariably blue.

Not sure what you are getting at Bonnie. but 'Truly Named' has nothing to do with the naming of lilies, it deals with protecting the integrity of named lilies.  How 'Alexis' got named?  Well according to what the hybridizer Stu Schuck told me, he named it after his daughter and another 'Chaz' ( which won the RHS Banksian Medal) after his son.  He never mentioned "doubts", so I have the foggiest on that one and can't image there would be any.

I do understand you ordered a WBG and am curious as to whether FAN would even have 'Lone Star' to mistakenly send.  Brad gave me a private showing of the Blue's Collection he presented for the iwgs symposium in '06(?)in which many people contributed every provably named blue they had and I don't recall seeing it, but then with over 60 varieties on display I might have overlooked it or flat out forgotten it.  While I don't have cause to by trops from FAN, I do exchange stock of species and new plants with them from time to time and they do have nice lilies.   I spent the night fighting the cold, my butt was dragging all day and I didn't get around to contacting Brad today.  I'll make a point of it the first of the week.
Craig     SW FL 9B

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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2009, 07:26:20 PM »
It is definitely not N. Lone Star. Ken has not ever released it. He said he has the only stock. It is a good lily but it is very stubborn at tubering off.
As good as he is at propagation, he might get 2 plants out of a tuber. It is as stubborn as the folks here in Texas.
It is not as tall out of the water as N. Woods Blue Goddess. It has more color variation in the flowers from day 1 to 3 than WBG.
Ken says that if you have all three different day flowers on one plant, it spreads the color spectrum, medium dark to medium to light.
WBG is more leggy in pad pattern. N. Lone Star is more tight and symmetrical in pad spread.
Just an FYI.

Tim
On a quest for the elusive lilies...



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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2009, 09:02:27 PM »
Hey Scott.   I do flint knapping and have made lots of spear points etc.  but I've never heard of an Aztec arrowhead.

Mike, what I was referring to is an aquatic marginal plant that I have been trying to get seeds to. I won't mention any names of whom I was trying to get the seeds from. {:-P;;
Happy ponding,
Scott o(


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Re: lily pics.
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2009, 02:39:29 PM »
Hi Timgod. That is very interesting.   Your source seems to be impeccable and undeniable,   The interesting thing is your description matches my plant PERFECTLY,  VERY tight leaf pattern,  from medium dark blue on first day flowers to almost white blue on third day flowers.     The leaves are almost wavy edged, not many points on the edge but I wouldn't say there are none.  Perry Slocum says that Woods Blue Goddess has  nearly round leaves that are  sharply serrated.     Also the undersides of the leaves have VERY pronounced green veins very much like a night bloomer.    And I'm not 100 percent sure but I think I remember the flower having a faint vanilla smell like Perry Slocum says.      And the plant does not make very closely attached almost embedded tubers like colorata does, as Perry Slocum says Woods Blue Goddess does.         I'm no tropical lily expert by any means but I at least, don't know any other lily that matches the description of Lone Star like this plant.     If you or anybody else can tell me the name of a lily that could be confused with Lone star I will try to match my plant to it's description.   I don't know of any that have the combination of VERY tight LIGHT green leaves with prominent green veins. A flower that fades from a pretty dark blue to almost white milky sky blue with maybe a little purple tinge, With very dark brownish violet anthers with lighter blue tips. the tubers are fairly good sized, 1 and one half inches and kind of irregular shape like an asteroid, that's if I remember right.     I don't know how it could be Lone Star judging by what you say but I guess I'm just stubborn but I still believe it is a Lone Star, just because it fits Perrys description SO well.   I would be glad to send a plant to you or Ken Landon or any body else who can positively identify a lone star.    One thing I know is it's a great plant very beautiful with all of those flowers of different shades of blue standing above those beautiful evenly spaced  tightly packed light green leaves of medium spread.   with the bigger dia. leaves on the perimeter of the plant and progressively smaller leaves as you get closer to the center of the plant with a very symmetrical appearance.  Also it's very cold and low light tolerant.   It's been blooming all winter in my green house as good as panama pacific or dauben almost.      I really hope we can straighten this out.   I figure if there is a plant that matches this plant besides Lone Star it probably would be an ampla hybrid like Lone star, and so far as I know there not to many out there.        I appreciate any help I can get. Thanks         Mike.

 

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