Author Topic: Dead Fish -scroll for Pix, not of the dead ones (Read 4882 times)

Esther · « **on:** February 18, 2009, 03:17:21 PM »

Yesterday I walked over to the pond and noticed three strips of color under the ice that wasn't there before. I think that one is the biggest fish I have, the female that layed all the eggs last spring. Another looks like it's white which may be Pearl, the scaleless one who is so pretty. Then there is a smaller one that's orangeish and I don't know which one that may be. We looked at them for a while and they didn't move so I think I may have lost my fish. I had/have about 11. The oldest one and first was about 6/7 years. The deicer has worked fine all winter and the pond was cleaned in the fall so I have no idea what has happened. This will be the first fish loss that I don't know why they died. Some have been lost to herons. Two managed to get up into the bog and then couldn't get out.

It'll be a while until the ice melts to see what's going on and how many are gone.

marla · « **Reply #1 on:** February 18, 2009, 05:54:38 PM »

Oh Esther if so I'm soooooo sorry

. I've been worried about mine also, even though the whole remained well open this year I'm afraid that the long sub-zero cold we had may have taken a toll. With the shallowness of so many northern ponds we really push the envelope for coldness on the koi's gills. I know that the goldfish in the lily pond have made it, or most as I have seen them. DH said he saw 2 goldfish in the main pond, which makes me hopeful, our koi are always the last to show themselves staying at the far and deepest end of the pond.

Pa Nancy · « **Reply #2 on:** February 18, 2009, 11:14:40 PM »

I would check the PH, KH, ammonia, and nitrites. Let the water warm up first to at least 65*.

So sorry.

Julles · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2009, 08:47:49 AM »

Three fish! That's so sad, Esther.

I have lost three fish, too, in the last week, and have another that popped up injured yesterday. One died without a mark on it.

I wish we knew what is causing this! I have never had fish come out of winter and not survive. This is all new to me. Very unfortunate and sad.

Kris · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2009, 06:50:25 PM »

Last winter I lost a total of 4 fish in the early spring. They had large ulcers on the body. We had such a long, cold winter last year I believe it took a serious toll on the koi's immune systems. This year I did a MediKoi round of food in the fall before I lost the warm weather/water temp & I'll do another this spring once my warm temps get up there. We don't usually get winters this cold here in Chicago, so 2 in a row aren't good news at all!

I also do a PP regime in the summer & keep the pond well vacuumed in the summer (not winter - I don't want to distrube the "warm" layer). The fish definately have seemed healther this winter & more active during our few warm spells. I hope that means no more losses this spring. I got my PP regime from the Advanced Koi Care book by Nicholas Saint Erne. I highly recommend this book for anyone who keeps koi! I love it!

Esther · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:05:27 AM »

There were 11 Koi in there and a couple of tiny feeder fish. There hasn't been anything different this year than the previous 7 winters as for how we have cared for the pond. It is always well cleaned in the fall. I have only once ever checked any of the peremeters. Found out the PH was high and got very worried and then was told to leave it alone so never did anything about it. There is a slow leak/leach in the waterfall so never need to do a water change, just add water about twice a week. Oh well, this may be the time to fill it in. I mentioned it to Pete and he didn't respond. The two negatives about a pond is the expense of the pumps and extra lights running 6 months a year and not being able to go away without worrying about it. Since Pete has been layed off, I have been much more aware of unnecessary expenses. My social security just doesn't pay what the bank did. LOL.

Ky Kim · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2009, 07:53:59 AM »

I'm with ya Esther, I've lost a couple myself this year. This is the first time I've lost fish in forever. Mine happened while we had the ice and no power.

Kim

marla · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2009, 06:40:33 AM »

Esther, if they are the same fish...the possibility of overcrowding due to their size increase could be some of the problem.....fish will give off ammonia through there gills, larger fish more ammonia. Of course it could be the length of time we had in the deep freeze weather. I do understand your thoughts on discontinuing the pond, I've already begun to wonder how much longer I will be able to do it all just physically, then add the financial issues and it could be sooner. Don't make any rush decisions, maybe a smaller more economical pump, and do it as just a water garden, then you will not have to worry about fish.

fishlipsmcgee · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2009, 01:03:27 PM »

I had the same scare about a month ago or so. I saw two strips of color at the surface under the ice and they were there for a long time so I was sure they were floating. I looked again the next day or two and they were gone. The ice thawed recently and I saw that they were all fine.

I guess they were just hanging out at the surface. I know we've had a very bad winter with prolonged cold temps. I keep a 100 watt floating deicer going all the time to keep a hole open but when we get extended cold periods or heavy snows I plug in the old 1250 watter for awhile. Good luck and don't panic yet.

Esther · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2009, 04:40:44 PM »

I'm sure at least three are dead. Especially the orange one. I can see through the ice well enough to tell it is lying on it's side. The three are still there since I first noticed them a few days back. They have never done anything like this so I'm sure.

Pete and I made this pond so kept the soil at the back of our property that was dug out + we could throw all the rocks in the hole to help fill it up. I never thought I'd get to this point to fill it in but here I am. Maybe when spring gets here, I'll change my tune.

fishlipsmcgee · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2009, 07:50:59 AM »

Sorry, Esther. I was hoping for the best. Please don't think about filling in your pond! We all have had pond disasters and it is so sad to lose fish. Think of the joy that your pond brings you all all who look at your pond. In this world we all need the peacefulness and escape that spending some time listening to the water, watching the fish swim

appreciating the beauty of all the plants and flowers and caring and nurturing these things can bring. Hmmmm Is that why we do all this?

tootsie · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2009, 08:56:53 AM »

AWWWWWWWWW, so sorry to hear of your loss :'( My pond still has so much ice on it, even when we had those warmer temps it did not affect the thick ice! I hope when spring comes I will not find any of my fin kids afloat! Guess I have been pretty lucky to have only one rather large Koi laying on the steep edge of the pond, with it's tail chewed off

That just made me sick, as he/she was one that always watched me walking around the pond.

Bonnie · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2009, 12:59:15 PM »

Sorry Esther.. it's sad when we lose our pets.

tweetybaby2005 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 26, 2009, 05:42:05 AM »

Esther, sorry to hear that you lost some fish. Yesterday one of mine floated to the top. I was heart broken. :'( The net was broken 1.5 weeks ago because something flew into the yard and cut it. It was a windy day (gust up to 51 mph). Lots of debris were/are in the pond. Pond water went from clear, can see fish swimming around to nothing. I was praying that the fish will be OK but alas, I have my first casualty. There were no visible cut or wound on the fish. I hope my other fish are OK.

Spring needs to be here NOW so I can clean up the pond.

Kuan

Esther · « **Reply #14 on:** February 26, 2009, 05:48:58 AM »

It's odd to see Smokey walking around on the snow covered ice of the pond and digging at the spots where we saw the fish through the ice. I am amazed that he know they are under there.

Lawrence of PA · « **Reply #15 on:** February 26, 2009, 10:27:32 AM »

I lost the only two koi I had this winter, and a large goldie. This was our second winter in this house, and the second winter we had the pond. It was installed by a previous owner, without any filtration, and I've mostly been doing this by the seat of my pants for the past year.

The previous winter wasn't as cold, apparently. As I recall, the ice got only a couple of inches thick. I have a 100 W deicer, and it kept a hole open all winter. This year, the deicer worked, too, but the ice layer got to be about 9-10 inches thick.

In addition, the fish all grew enormously last year, since I don't think they were fed regularly by the previous owner. And the goldies had lots of babies. so the fish load was probably higher, and may have resulted in toxicity in the water, although the day I removed the dead koi, I stuck a test strip in the water, and nitrates, nitrites looked fine.

This summer, the pond gets as much of a remake as I can manage without taking out the liner and starting over. Maybe next year. Everywhere I look, I see violations of the good pond-building rules I see here and other sites.

Esther, I feel your pain.

Julles · « **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2009, 04:54:33 PM »

"...without taking out the liner and starting over."

Come on, Larry - You KNOW you're eventually going to dig a larger pond! May as well do it this year!

Lawrence of PA · « **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2009, 07:07:08 PM »

Eventually, yes. This year, no. This year is a 10-12 week Alaska trip.

But I am starting to plan the dig for next year.

mcp · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2009, 07:30:26 AM »

Must be the cold winter. A lot of the snow has melted and can see in thru the ice in some places. Like Esther's dog mine has been going out on the ice and scratching in one place. Today I could see a spotch of orange there . Must be a dead koi . I have only ever had a couple fish die over the years. Would like to get it out but the only way is either chop it out or use a blow torch. Think I will just wait to see what happens. I will really be glad when this winter gets over.

Dkoinut · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2009, 07:21:23 PM »

Sorry you're loosing your wet pets. Sometimes It's caused by a frog or other critter that died in the pond. But to prevent more losses, you really should get the dead ones out of the pond as soon as possible. Do not wait. You can melt the ice with pans of hot water or with a hose and tap water. Once you have a hole started you can add a deicer to melt the ice enough to remove the dead.

Esther · « **Reply #20 on:** March 02, 2009, 07:22:46 AM »

How do I get out on the ice? I have no idea if it would hold. Besides I have melted ice that way before and it took an awful of heated pans of water to get through. My guess is that they are all dead so I don't think there's much hurry. I can see 5-6 dead ones, all at different places just under the ice, and had 11 to start with. I'm done with Koi. Yah, they're impressive but lately money has become a problem. Those 15-20" fish eat a lot so I guess this is the time to switch to goldfish. Trouble is, when I had them, they were spawning all over the place and the Koi didn't as much. I wondered if I had all one gender.

Lawrence of PA · « **Reply #21 on:** March 02, 2009, 08:35:19 AM »

Esther,

Do you have a floating heater to keep a hole in the ice? I do, but it wasn't the only problem I had this winter. The ice was thick; the fish load was high due to growth of the koi and multiplication of the goldies; and the pond hasn't been cleaned in a long time: not the year I've had it, and I think not the 3 or 4 years before that. I wasn't thinking about all the water liliies and other vegetation rotting under the ice all winter.

So my solution is to clean the pond, install aeration, and resolve to get the dead plant leaves out next fall.

I loved my koi, even though they were "mutts." I don't even know what they were, since they were in the pond when we moved in. But the guy who sold them to the previous owner was surprised they were alive last summer. Apparently, they were sickly (and cheap) when the previous owner bought them.

I will have koi again when I'm sure I have this wintering over thing figured out.

Larry

bunny56lbc · « **Reply #22 on:** March 02, 2009, 06:22:35 PM »

Sorry Esther you lost you're wet pets .
Shubinkins breed like rabbits ! But the Wakins didn't do much hanky panky.....I ended up
with about 16 babies but of course the young koi I had in there with them could've ate the
eggs /babies....koi are good for that kind of thing...

bonnie

Rocmon · « **Reply #23 on:** March 02, 2009, 09:33:38 PM »

Hey Esther I'm sorry to hear about your fish. It's always heartbreaking to lose one of the herd. Sounds like you were hit especially hard. Koi are supposed to be more demanding in their water requirements.

You could try using the drain on the water heater to melt a quick hole, if you can reach the pond with a hose from the water heater. Be careful the first bit out could be full of crud, if you haven't drained the heater in awhile. A small propane torch for soldering copper pipe might work quickly too.

I remember awhile back someone built a 'hole in the ice' contraption with a simple 100 watt bulb in some kind of floating contraption. Upside down bucket or some such with foam around the base to keep it floating. I don't remember if it was insulated or not or how cold the winter got where they were but they said it kept a hole in the ice to allow for gas exchange.

If your looking to reduce goldfish populations I've had great success with mosquito fish (which breed like mice) eating most of the eggs. Keep the plant cover (parrots feather and the like) at a minimum while they are breeding so they haven't anyplace to hide the eggs.

Esther · « **Reply #24 on:** March 03, 2009, 07:46:30 AM »

I have kept a hole all winter with my floating deicer contraption so that isn't the problem. I was talking about not bothering to get the dead fish out from under the ice. They are all over in there at opposite ends in 5 different places. I'm not about to waste hot water and it'll take a lot, getting them out. We have a blow torch and have used it before to open the ice when the deicer quit but again I'm not that concerned about getting them out as I suspect all 11 are dead, just not right under the ice where I can see them. DH is a plumber so if any of this was going to get done, he'd be doing it.

As soon as the ice thins, I'll get the dead ones out and go searching for the rest of them.

I have had Wakin before and they were the first to get caught by the heron the next season. I think the split tail slows their ability to get away quickly.

We have to tear the plant ledge stuff apart this year as everything we planted there has gone absolutely crazy. When I say planted, all I did was stick the plants between rocks to hold them in place and they have crept all along the ledge forming huge root systems. some crept out of the pond and I have been ripping them up and tossing them.

frogman3 · « **Reply #25 on:** March 03, 2009, 08:17:32 PM »

Ester I stumbled upon this possible explanation as to why your fish may have died,while reading on another forum where someone was trying to help a ponder that noticed some of her Koi dead under the ice even though she kept a hole open all winter but no added aeration. She also did a though cleaning in the fall. He provided links to several articles containing experiments that he conducted over the winter on one of his ponds he did not clean nor provide and opening in the ice. His recommendation to her was to add water to the pond through the hole to try and save any remaining Kio. About 10% of the volume every few days until ice out. The link is http://www.pondpulse.com/ go to the jan 2009 and look for " Koi and winter death" and the follow up article feb 2009 "what can occur in a pond during winter" This is a good explanation as to what actually happens at the bottom of your pond when the debris decays during winter. Which can also be an animal that found it's way in your pond and drowned after you closed it.
Hope this helps someone it's a real eye opener.

Esther · « **Reply #26 on:** March 03, 2009, 08:40:24 PM »

With all the snow that has fallen this winter, I would think that would be plenty of fresh water in the pond. But maybe not. I don't know. As for debree in the bottom, there couldn't have been much as I often scoop it out thoroughly. Of course there would be a few leaves but don't think it could be that bad. It's been what, two weeks since I first noticed the dead ones and I suspect it's too late now to do anything about it.
Thanks for the link. It was an interesting article. There were some other interesting ones there too.

marla · « **Reply #27 on:** March 03, 2009, 09:00:01 PM »

amazingly snow that melts and rain normaly are very acid (not always) if I test my rain water the PH is ususally about 6.6. In the winter with melting snow your PH can drop sometimes dramaticly and a PH crash can kill fish quickly. The stabalizer of PH is your KH a winter KH of 200 will mean even if your PH say may drop from 8.8 to 7.8 it will drop slower and stabalize around 7.8-8.0 which is still survivable. If your KH is low your PH can crash rapidly and this is deadly. You can buffer your PH with baking soda to raise the KH. Also the larger the fish and the more overstocked you are the larger hole will be needed in the winer for gas exchange. This winter has been very cold and cold for long periods at a time, Koi are not as hardy as goldfish/shubunkins if the water in a shallow pond gets under 34* for long periods of time you will get gill damage.
I'm really sorry about your fish, I've often told DH that if this would happen to us I would give up on the koi also and continue with goldfish/shubunkins....I love the koi but in our northern climates with the shallower ponds most of us have it can be touch and go.

Esther · « **Reply #28 on:** March 06, 2009, 09:17:41 AM »

The outside temps rose yesterday and much of the ice has thawed on the pond. Several of the dead fish were imbedded in the ice so we were able to dig them out this morning. We got 7 out of the 11. I put them in a plastic bag and weighed them. They totaled 13.5 pounds. I measured the largest one I call Sunshine as she was all orange. She was the one who spawned last spring. She was 22" from tip of her tail to the end of her nose and weighed a smidgen over 4 pounds. Usually the water is clear all winter and when the ice goes but it isn't this year. Still don't have any idea what happened. As soon as the rest of the ice is gone, I'll probably find the rest of the dead ones. Trouble is, all the pots of lilies are on the bottom so will get in the way. We're thinking of pumping out the water eventually because, even though the fish were frozen, you could see ucky stuff draining off them and where they layed in the water, there was a bit of greasy look to the surface.

casey · « **Reply #29 on:** March 06, 2009, 10:19:29 AM »

How depressing, Esther. I'm sorry you have this sad job to clean out lost friends ahead of you. I'm sorry. :'(