Author Topic: Why a bottom drain? (Read 4678 times)

Bullfrog · « **on:** March 22, 2009, 05:57:01 AM »

i'm not real comfortable cutting a hole in a brand new liner. Why can't you just use a pump and a hose when it's time to drain the pond?

Sonny · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2009, 05:59:58 AM »

The main reason for bottom drains is not to empty the pond but to remove the sediment that would otherwise collect on the bottom.

Esther · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2009, 10:43:17 AM »

I wonder if we have a tutorial about that Jim. The pump would sit above or at pond level outside the pond like a pool maybe and then pull the water up across a settlement tub and then through filters and back to the pond. We have a bottom drain on the pool too and it isn't a drain at all. Just looks like one. Here I am trying to explain something I've never had. Hope that helped though. It is supposed to get the small gunk off the bottom as the suction is at the lowest spot in the pond and would encourage particles to float to it just from gravity and suction. I don't have one and would be scared to death to cut a hole in the liner there. I can just imagine losing water down there and not being able to fix it. But DH thinks I'm crazy. As a plumber, he is putting stuff like that in showers all the time. Oh and another thing, I think that with a bottom drain you would either have to give up on a skimmer or split the piping so some pulled from the bottom and some from the skimmer like a pool. So it would be totally sealed. It of course would use a different type of pump than what I use on my skimmer/filter. Mine is a submersible, kind of sump pump type but made for a waterfall so it has the endurance a sump pump doesn't.

Julles · « **Reply #3 on:** March 23, 2009, 02:16:29 PM »

I, too, would not want to cut my liner. I think bottom drains would be better in a concrete pond. Also, in order for it to drain, you'd have to have a set of pipes below the pond, running to a sewer or some other receptical lower than the bottom of the pond. Gravity, you know. Either that, or you'd have to have some sort of pump attached to the drain, to suck the water out.

Jonathan · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2009, 03:53:53 PM »

Hi Yall
Another option is a retro drain. They dont require any liner cutting. but the plumming is all inside the pond.
just a suggestion

tranquility · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2009, 04:30:49 PM »

Once you put in a bd you'll wonder how you ever lived without it....even a retro fit one is alot better than none at all...bd's are the way to go

Lawanna

Jonathan · « **Reply #6 on:** March 23, 2009, 04:35:32 PM »

Quote from: tranquility on March 23, 2009, 04:30:49 PM

Once you put in a bd you'll wonder how you ever lived without it....even a retro fit one is alot better than none at all...bd's are the way to go
Lawanna

Im intalling airrated koi toilet on my new pond

bunny56lbc · « **Reply #7 on:** March 23, 2009, 05:33:12 PM »

What is a retro fit ? What does it look like ? More info please

I don't have a bottom drain on my koi pond ...actua;;y planning on
makeing a bigger koi pond this year but like bullfrog said I don't really want to
cut a hole in the new liner ....

bonnie

Jonathan · « **Reply #8 on:** March 23, 2009, 05:37:05 PM »

http://www.aquaart.com/drain.html Hear ya go

bunny56lbc · « **Reply #9 on:** March 23, 2009, 05:51:37 PM »

Quote from: Jonathan on March 23, 2009, 05:37:05 PM

http://www.aquaart.com/drain.html Hear ya go

Thank You !
Heading over there now...

bonnie

Dkoinut · « **Reply #10 on:** March 25, 2009, 06:22:19 PM »

Personally, I'd never have a pond with out a bottom drain and a settling chamber. Makes maintenance so very much easier. It also, if used with a settling chamber will reduce water usage. I never need to completely empty my pond to clean it. My aereated bottom drain constantly sweeps the pond bottom clean. Bottom drains are very easy to install and will not leak if installed properly.

mascot · « **Reply #11 on:** March 26, 2009, 08:53:18 AM »

"Bottom Drain" is a bit misleading...it really isn't a "drain" but a method to cycle water from the bottom of the pond rather than the surface, like a skimmer does. Some skimmers have provisions for a mid-level intake as well. When I first started building my pond I heard 'bottom drain' up to here, and yet not one person telling me to install one (at that time) fully explained what it was for and that it wasn't to drain the pond, but a circulation fitting. Some people hear "drain" and they think just that - that they use it to drain the pond for cleaning and that's the only purpose.

I haven't had one in my pond and after three years it's still pretty clear. I have to use a pool/pond vac to clean up the bottom, but since I have a low spot it tends to collect there and it cleans up well. If I do a bigger pond, I will have to think hard about the bottom drain/settling chamber idea. I don't want to invest $2-3000 more in equipment, so if I do it I will try to do the home made version. I will seek the assistance of those of you who are willing to put up with my million (give or take a few) questions should I decide to build a bigger pond.

Master Pond Builder · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2009, 02:08:31 PM »

Please stay away from bottom drains the potential problems far out-weight any benifits. I could go on forever but I don't feel like writing a book about this topic. Please trust me I do this for a living, and I have learned the hard way.

CliffandJoann · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2009, 09:20:22 AM »

I wasn't going to jump in here until I read Master Pond Builders advise...

A bottom drain is the single most important thing you can do for your pond.
Everything else can be improved upon later.
The bottom drain removes all the fish waste and empties it outside the pond into
filter tubs.

Trust me, I'm not a master pond builder, just a pond hobbyist and we've had
a pond for one 12 years, and have a lot of big koi, and always have a sparkling clear pond
because of the bottom drain.
You have to have a rock less bottom with a bottom drain so that the debris on the bottom naturally
flows toward the bottom drain...we just have a small 4 x 5 foot beach area that's rocked, the rest is rock less.

Do yourself a very big favor, add a bottom drain to your plans.
Joann

[img width= height=]http://backyardpond.homestead.com/P1010981_rev__fish_6-10_-06.JPG[/img]

mascot · « **Reply #14 on:** April 01, 2009, 10:13:45 AM »

I was curious...if you have a bottom drain you have to have a settling chamber or something like that to clean up, right? If you don't have a bottom drain, why not just have a low spot in the pond and use a pond vac? It seems that every pond with a bottom drain has a settling chamber and all sorts of filters, and that's usually more than some of us can afford to do. If you're on low ground as it is, it makes it tough to drain the filters somewhere. I haven't had a bottom drain for 3 years and despite the fact that I haven't pond vac'ed the bottom for a few weeks, it's still pretty clear. I just have a skimmer with brushes and a savio biofalls with the springflo.

I'm not trying to argue the point, but I was told by many that without one my pond would be horrible, and it's not. It's clear down to 28 inches with the exception of some floating particles. I think the rule that what works for one person doesn't always work for everyone else - that said, my lack of a bottom drain may not work for others.

This picture was taken on 3-8-09, after some algae growth...but still pretty clear. The koi at the top of the picture under the slate rock is about 28 inches below the surface. Does this look pretty clear or could it be better?

CliffandJoann · « **Reply #15 on:** April 01, 2009, 10:54:37 AM »

Yes, Blind two, your pond is beautifully clear.,,,and you are right, what works for some, may not work for others.
If your pond is big and deep, it's hard to vacuum. If you are overloaded with koi, and like to feed them, vacuuming a large pond will quickly become a daunting task.
Cliff goes into our pond in the Spring to clean out (with a net) leaves that have accculimated over the winter, and goes around fixing all the rocks on the shelves, and planting the plants on the shelves behind and between the rocks. At the same time, he cleans out the dog leg section. We only use the skimmer in early spring, after that it's not necessary.
If you can manage with vacuuming, that's fine, but our first filter box gets cleaned out every week, sometimes two times a week, and the amount of waste in there,

there is no way we could keep that under control with just a vacuum.
That's why my advise is to put in a bottom drain, in a large pond.
I know of many people that regret not having one, but have never heard
of anyone bemoaning a bottom drain.
Here is a link to our stytem, the DIY instructions need to be updated, we usually only clean
out the first filter tub one to two times a week. The system is a gravity system, completely DIY,
and very cheap, but functional.

[img width= height=]http://backyardpond.homestead.com/untitled1.html[/img]

mascot · « **Reply #16 on:** April 01, 2009, 11:06:17 AM »

thanks...I should say that my pond isn't very big by most standards. It does have a 15 foot shallow area, but the main pond is only about 7 feet in diameter and 28 inches deep. I estimate it to be about 1100 gallons and the pump is 2600gph, so it does circulate about twice an hour.

I may do a slightly bigger pond in the yard, but it would likely be a bit under 2000 gallons...jury's still out on that one, though, because I know that it's not going to be fun to dig through the clay and rock!

BTW...you forgot your link...or I missed it somewhere.

thanks

CliffandJoann · « **Reply #17 on:** April 01, 2009, 11:34:51 AM »

Well, when you do the bigger pond do the bottom drain, remember what our pond looks like?
It's would be very hard to vacuum. Can't remember how to do a link. just go to my profile and get to
our website. Then hit the link 'Pond plans and diagrams'
BTW. I need to update the instructions we usually only clean out the first filter tub once and week and sometimes two, rarely more than that.

I can post a pic but not a link? duh!
here's an example of why we don't vacuum.

nowhere to stand

[img width= height=]http://backyardpond.homestead.com/P1010135pond_rev__5-31-05.JPG[/img]

Esther · « **Reply #18 on:** April 02, 2009, 03:28:20 PM »

Another reason we didn't do a "bottom drain" is that we wanted to have the most inexpensive DIY setup possible. We didn't want to have gobs of fittings, filters, barrels, buckets, etc, pipes going here and pipes going there in our setup. We are getting older and have a sneaking idea that to sell this house, we'll have to remove the pond. So didn't want to have to tear all that out and throw it away in 8 years or whatever. Also, our pond is only 10 x 13 x 30" and the bottom is very accessible from several angles with my long handled skimmer net. Yes, it is a lot of work but I have no problem with work at this point. The pond is shallow enough for me to reach the bottom and pick up pots or I use my "pot getter" to pull out the pots.

Right now my water is pretty green but just started the pump today for the first time since November. But I will have no problem getting it crystal clear.

tranquility · « **Reply #19 on:** April 04, 2009, 03:39:03 AM »

If you have koi you need a bd.....but, even if I were to do a large goldie--a bd just makes it soo much easier to keep clean....and its not nearly as frightening to do as you would think...quite easy once youv'e done it...
Lawanna

Bullfrog · « **Reply #20 on:** April 04, 2009, 06:21:19 AM »

I like the retro drain setup better than cutting a hole in a new liner. I wonder if it would be OK to dig a small trench along the bottom and press the liner down into this trench? That way I could run my pipe from the retro bottom drain in this trench and then cover it with rocks. A black pipe against a black liner probably wouldn't show up that much anyway.

Koi Boi · « **Reply #21 on:** April 05, 2009, 10:49:35 AM »

I installed two Tetra bottom drains in this pond in 1994 and have never had a problem. I plumbed each drain into a bog bed, located to the left of the pond in the picture, with a stand pipe for each drain. I pop the stand pipes daily and let the water gush into the bog until it turns from black or dark green to clear then reseat the stand pipes. The pond pudding collects in the bog to feed the bog plants with fabulous results. There is also a picture of the back side of the bog.

Bullfrog · « **Reply #22 on:** April 05, 2009, 06:11:32 PM »

I am so thankfull for all of the input here. After doing a lot of reading of these posts and the ones on kiophon, I am going to install a bottom drain. I'm just glad that I found this place first so I could learn how to do everything right the first time.

I have the hots so bad for a pond now you wouldn't believe it, but it takes a lot of time to plan it out. I'm a Virgo and I'm just like that. After printing out the plans for the homemade biofilter that was linked here, it all is falling into place slowly. There is a lot to consider, the waterfall, the skimmer, the filter, drain and recycling system. Plants and the whole nitrogen cycle big picture.

We have about one thousand dollars left of the insurance money that we recieved from hurricane Ike because I did the work myself and it is going to a pond. I want to thank all of you here for your help and input. We have faced the fact that we aren't going to win the lottery, that with my limited education, I will never be a rich and sucessful author.

This is where we will spend our golden years. Our backyard is our world, that and our pets. So we have agreed to make this place, our place, a little slice of heaven made just for us. The rich and famous may be able to jet wherever they wish and see magnificent sights at their whim. But I know that if we do this now, we can have a gurgling waterfall, colorfull fish and a really nice place to sit when I retire. God's magnificence right in our backyard. Frogs serenading us as the sun sets.

Ain't life grand?

CliffandJoann · « **Reply #23 on:** April 06, 2009, 04:13:12 AM »

You will not regret your decision Bullfrog. Here is a link I found for a bottom drain.
It's not really hard to do.
http://www.bottomdrain.com/bottom_drain_install.htm

Remember that the entire floor of the pond should slant towards the BD, so that all the debris
naturally flows towards the BD.
Another thing to consider is shelves (that are not really shelves cause you can rock the shelves all
the way up to the ground. This way no liner is showing on the edge and you'll have a place to
put plants between the rocks and in back of the rocks on the 'shelves'.
Here is what I mean...

Good luck to you...

mcp · « **Reply #24 on:** April 06, 2009, 06:30:16 AM »

Bullfrog, Great decision on putting in a BD. You will not be sorry. I too was reluctant to cut the liner . I certainly glad I did now. This will be year 5 with no problems . Just say a prayer and follow the instructions. Worked for me.

Please post pictures of your pond build. Can't wait to see them.

Bullfrog · « **Reply #25 on:** April 06, 2009, 06:59:06 PM »

I know to plumb my skimmer up to the falls to remove the large debris and add to the volume of the falls but I do have a question. If your bottom drain also leads to a settlement chamber before the biofilter that also feeds the waterfall, where is the pump located? I'm going to build my own biofilter as shown on Koiphon but I don't understand where the pump would be located, before or after the biofilter?

It has to be before the settlement chamber. But how do you seal the settlement chamber to feed the biofilter and still be cleaned out and yet maintain pump pressure for your waterfall???

mcp · « **Reply #26 on:** April 06, 2009, 08:39:35 PM »

Bullfrog, We need a little more infromation. What kind of pump will you be using. Submersible or external? The way I have mine plumbed is a submersible in skimmer to waterfall. An external after Settlement pond to skippy filter.

Bullfrog · « **Reply #27 on:** April 07, 2009, 02:40:59 AM »

Quote from: mcp on April 06, 2009, 08:39:35 PM

Bullfrog, We need a little more infromation. What kind of pump will you be using. Submersible or external? The way I have mine plumbed is a submersible in skimmer to waterfall. An external after Settlement pond to skippy filter.

I'm going to use a submersible in the skimmer and an external for the biofilter I think. I still haven't settled on the size of the pond so I'm yet to choose which pump in particular. I made a typo earlier but you answered my question. The pump goes after the settlement chamber and before the biofilter, I am thinking.

mcp · « **Reply #28 on:** April 07, 2009, 06:21:41 AM »

You are correct. The pump goes after the settlement pond and before the bio filter.

Bullfrog · « **Reply #29 on:** April 07, 2009, 05:54:35 PM »

Quote from: mcp on April 07, 2009, 06:21:41 AM

You are correct. The pump goes after the settlement pond and before the bio filter.

Yes, water seeks it's own level so if I dig and place the settlement chamber equal to the depth of my pond, the pump will draw suction. With a powerfull enough pump, I can draw out of the settlement chamber into the biofilter and then the falls but I am still puzzeled as to how to avoid a vortex effect and make the large matter settle into the bottom of the settlement chamber without losing a lot of flow rate. Do you make a baffle inside of the settlement chamber?