Any weed experts out there?

[croft]

My yard is being invaded by Horsetail (Equisetum arvense) which came in with a load of gravel for our driveway. If only I had realized then what it was! Does anyone have any ideas on how to get rid of it? It has moved into the lawn and a few flower beds. I've tried picking off the reproductive stalks that they put up in the spring and in the summer picking off, burning and spraying with vinegar the vegetative growth. They seem to come back just as strong as ever. I had read that they like acidic soils so this fall I was generous with the lime. I guess I'll find out next spring. Anyone have any other suggestions other than moving ?

[Jerry]

it pulls out easily from wet soil.  Can you consider Round-Up?

[croft]

I found that it is easy to pull up Jerry, and I've been doing a lot of that! Unfortunately, the "roots" can go very deep and they just resprout. Our town has put in a pesticide/herbicide ban so Roundup is out but thanks for the suggestion.

[maryvonne]

Our yard is full of it as well and it's virtually impossible to get rid of it. Round up won't hurt it any. There is a herbicide that will kill it but in your case the only thing you can do is continue to pull it out. Unfortunately the roots break off easily and it will regrow from the smallest piece of root. It will also go dormant if conditions are bad and regrow again with a vengence once conditions improve. It's definately a pesky weed.

Maryvonne

[Mikey]

Is it in a location where you could cover it with black plastic next summer?  If you bury the edges of the black plastic the heat from several weeks of hot sun should sterilize the ground......I think......

[maryvonne]

Is it in a location where you could cover it with black plastic next summer?  If you bury the edges of the black plastic the heat from several weeks of hot sun should sterilize the ground......I think......

We tried that. Had the black plastic on for a couple seasons and the horse tail still came back. It's a really tough one.

Maryvonne

[andrew davis]

Sodium Chlorate is a cheap cost effective weedkiller, the sort of thing you would use to keep airport runways clear of all plants

Dissolved in water, it can accurately be spread over a wide area. Allow it to dry into the ground of an area and any plant that tries to grow through that ground, or start up from seed is going to wither and die, for about six months

I found it effective to create an exclusion area six feet wide along six hundred foot of hedgerows, to stop invasive grasses, brambles, ivy crossing a property perimeter.

While the top soil stayed free of weeds, the weedkiller did not seem to affect the roots of the hedge, it killed anything that tried to grow through the surface soil...

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[Joyce]

  http://www.state.nj.us/health/eoh/rtkweb/1688.pdf 

[croft]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I was thinking about trying black plastic next year Mikey but thanks to Maryvonne I wont be wasting my time with that method. Andrew, because we are on a well, I pretty much try and use organic methods of weed control as well as the fact that our town has instituted a no pesticide bylaw. Joyce thanks for the link  ( is right!)

[andrew davis]

Sodium chlorate, like salt (sodium chloride), or vinegar (acetic acid), works by chemical action. It does it a lot more effectively and lasts a longer on the ground that it is applied. Affects only the ground that it dries upon.

Please don't confuse the safety instructions relevant for manufacture and warehousing the stuff in large scale bulk concentrated storeage with its use highly diluted and widely spread, where the characteristic of killing weeds is far more cost effective and quite safe when done

It is environmentally safe properly used (except for weeds in the surface ground), extremely cost effective, fda approved for the task, probably does not fall into the 'pesticide' category as it does not meet the criterion of a residual poison

It just plain scorches the roots of anything that tries to grow in the ground where it is applied, then degrades slowly over time to benign compounds.

It probably costs a heck of a lot less than what some unqualified, uneducated, untrained, untrustworthy 'sod' company will try to sell you by way of a solution

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[Joyce]

Any old washed up 'sod' knows that anything poured onto the ground,
especially water based, eventually ends up in the ground water.

Croft, I am glad you are taking the responsible, rational approach to your weed problem.

[Teresa]

Sodium chlorate is bad stuff . . . .

The compound is dissolved in water before application to plants and poisoning has been reported after inhalation of atomised droplets of the solution. Initial toxic effects are due to the irritant effect of chloride ions on the GI mucosa following absorption. The oxidation of haemoglobin to methaemoglobin leads to intravascular haemolysis and methemoglobinemia.

Sodium chlorate is also a potent nephrotoxin and acute tubular necrosis is common. Oral ingestion may produce vomiting, abdominal pain, confusion, cyanosis, methaemoglobinaemia, haemolysis, convulsions, kidney damage and anuria.

There are documented cases of humans being poisoned when applying it or working with it.  There have also been several cases of wildlife being injured due to the use of sodium chlorate . . . mass sheep kills, rat deaths, etc.

Since I love the birds and wildlife that visit my yard, I sure wouldn't use it.


I think the first thing I would do to control the horsetail is sink a bamboo sheild past the farthest place it's gotten to so that it cannot go any farther.  Then I might try the black plastic method or perhaps a major dig to remove the roots that are travelling underground - a lot of work, but it worked for DH when he was trying to erradicate some messy bamboo a few years ago.  He replaced all the dirt with fresh dirt and tossed the roots out with the old dirt.  Our patch wasn't too big - it wouldn't be feasible if your patch is huge.

[Johns]

Go here   http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/SO/sodium_chlorate.html  and here  http://www.sciencestuff.com/msds/C2559.html  before using sdium chlorate.

I do not understand total pesticide banning, as it throws the baby out with the bath water.  I wonder what the doofuses in your town would do about mosquitoes should an epidemic of  Western Equine Encephalitis  (see  http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvbid/arbor/weefact.htm ) invade the area.

As to the horsetail, I got rid of mine using roundup (glyphosate) which is practacally completely non-toxic [see http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Monsanto-Roundup-MSDS-Docs7020.htm ] as opposed to vinegar [See http://college.holycross.edu/documents/msds/DISTVINE.HTM ].  I had a fairly large area of the invasive stuff and it took several months of treatment to finally eradicate it, but it has been gone for years now.

So it would appear that your best course of action would be to soak the root areas of the plants with white vinegar, even though glyphosate would do a better job and is even less toxic than the vinegar.  Be advised that tree roots won't like the vinegar either, but it will eventually break down as alkalies in the soil combine with it over time.

[Craig]

By way of correcting some  misinformation....it is the EPA and not the FDA responsible for labeling regulations of pesticides.  The FDA only comes in on applications directed at food crops, animals and such, but they act only in accordance with the EPA regulations, in that they can approve certain uses, but not the pesticide per se.  But an approved use does not mean it is necessarily environmentally safe.  Methyl bromide is still used and known to deplete the ozone layer.

Sodium chlorate is indeed classifed as a pesticide by the EPA....a class II and must carry a warning label.
And there are also indeed residual effects as it stays in the environment for up to five years.

Rather than typing<g>...here is the info from the USDA: http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NationalList/TAPReviews/SodiumChlorate.pdf

And if someone tells you to ignore the material fact sheets, be very afraid.  They are about the properties and dangers of the substance proper when handled or stored in any quantitiy and decidedly not relevant just to manufacture and storage of large quantities.

Finally, when dealing with any pesticide (even the big box store stuff) always read the labels for yourself so you are aware of how to 'properly use it'.  In this instance...using it where wildlife can graze would be not environmentally safe.

[Johns]

Craig,

Being a licensed pesticide applicator, I have used Methly bromide/chloropicrin as a gas treatment to control diseases, nematodes and weeds for 30+ years.  Unfortunately it can only be used now under critical exemption rules and is no longer available to private applicators.  It is a deadly product that has to be used under strict procedures, but has been a godsend to agriculture in the US, especially Florida, and it's utility will be sorely missed.  Whether safer non ozone depleting alternatives will be developed that are as effective is still uncertain.  We all have had pounded into our brains how dangerous to the environment dichlorodiphenyltrichloroethane is, but it is likely that millions of people are alive today that would not be had DDT never been used.  There are many mixed blessings in life.

[andrew davis]

>>There are documented cases of humans being poisoned when applying it or working with it.  There have also been several cases of wildlife being injured due to the use of sodium chlorate . . . mass sheep kills, rat deaths, etc.

Several cases, what cases. Evidence required. How was the material misused etc.

As usual the sort of comment from someone

a) Has no experience of using the material

b) For reasons best known to themselves fails to research the benefits of the material

The only information you have supplied is what problems might arise if the material is misused.

I've used the stuff for years when occasion calls for it. Used accurately and safely it is a very reliable, cost effective and safe way to stop ground from being destroyed by the likes of horsetail, brambles, invasive grasses, kudzu.

One task I used it for was to keep a path free of weeds for a half blind invalid who could easily fall and injure themself.

Another task, 600 foot of hawthorn and privet hedgerow difficult to weed. The stuff worked, spot on for about half a year, to create a six foot wide exclusion zone. With no adverse affects to plantings close to the area. Months after it was applied late Summer, Spring bulbs came through the treated area. Great stuff, used accurate.

The main factor of its accurate use is to use something like a watering bucket so the very diluted solution dries on the ground in a short space of time

Regards, andy
http://www.members.aol.com/abdavisnc/swglist.html

[Craig]

Hi John,

I used methyl bromide to make a point that it is wrong to think registered uses are equivalent to being environmentally safe and not to pan its use.  Though I don't see a need for private applicators to have access to it, I think the way the ban is being handled is as you said 'throwing the baby out....'  It needs to be phased out, but find a replacement first.  Strikes me as knee jerk in that there are worse ozone depleters out there and US agriculture is targeted, but not that inthe third world.  But then I drift and that offend some.<g>

Andrew, can you post the product you use, the dilution and the application rates?  I've read the labels on a number of sodium chlorate products today and only find labeling as a defoliant so am looking for information on its accurate use as an herbicide.