Author Topic: Hi all! (Read 2465 times)

LynneNY · « **on:** July 06, 2009, 07:26:28 PM »

I was sent over here by Lynne22, and since she has such a nice name (

) I just had to check out these forums!

I have a 3000 gallon pond that my husband built after we had the hole dug out for us when we were having to connect to the town sewer system after our septic tank got some serious leaks. The contractor dug the hole for free - very nice! He dug it just where we mapped it out, and made it about 4 feet deep, but when my husband put a layer of sand down under the liner, he built it up so much that the deepest part is not about 2 1/2 feet. I was NOT happy at all when I found that out! :'(

Last summer was our first with the pond up and running, and we had a terrible time trying to get the water regulated. I lost about 36 baby koi - about 6 batches of 6 fish at a time. Granted, I got them at PetSmart, and I've been reading that those aren't the healthiest, but I couldn't afford the better ones, and wasn't sure they would live anyway.

In September, I made a last attempt at 4 more babies from PetSmart. The problem was that the water was so full of algae and murky that once I put any fish in the pond, they were never seen again... until we found them dead. So, when I was cleaning out all the leaves in March and April, I found 1 dead koi. Didn't see the other 3, but assumed they had died too. Fast forward to May, and the pond turned pea soup GREEN! My husband couldn't take it, and since we didn't see any fish, he put more Algae Fix in, and added a bit extra for good measure. The next day, all 3 koi came up gasping for air! We were shocked that they had survived the winter here in zone 6, because again, the pond wasn't deep enough, and it had frozen completely over with no air holes or heater.

The next day 1 was found dead in the skimmer, and we haven't seen the other 2 since! The water was still pea soup green, so I put some barley straw in - it started doing it's trick, but not enough for my husband, so he bought a UV light which he installed last Thursday. I couldn't wait, and bought 2 different batches of 8 comet feeder fish after having seen a friends very large comets in her pond.

They have been doing well so far, and the water is clearing up. Only 1 comet was found dead in the skimmer in 2 weeks - that is an accomplishment for us! They are even coming up to the surface to eat now - so exciting! But we still have not seen the 2 koi. The only place they can really hide, is underneath a 1/2 clay pot that my husband smoothed out and put in the bottom, but when he went in the pond yesterday and turned it over, there weren't any fish there. NO koi, which were now about 5 inches long. So do we assume that some animal got to them? I have seen a heron flying high over the pond, and actually saw one by the side of the pond one time last fall. I haven't seen one by the pond at all this year though. I'm guessing it could have come when we weren't home? It's so weird not knowing where those fish are!

Anywho... I am really enjoying reading everyone's posts here, and the pictures are terrific! I have a few questions that I am going to post in the appropriate forums, and am looking forward to all of your advice.

PondmaninAL · « **Reply #1 on:** July 06, 2009, 08:34:27 PM »

Welcome to AP, LynneNY. I can't wait to see pics of your pond.

tinkster · « **Reply #2 on:** July 06, 2009, 08:58:34 PM »

welcome! ME to.. we love pics..

tink

Lynne22 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 06, 2009, 09:01:43 PM »

Quote from: LynneNY on July 06, 2009, 07:26:28 PM

I was sent over here by Lynne22, and since she has such a nice name ( ) I just had to check out these forums!

I have a 3000 gallon pond that my husband built after we had the hole dug out for us when we were having to connect to the town sewer system after our septic tank got some serious leaks. The contractor dug the hole for free - very nice! He dug it just where we mapped it out, and made it about 4 feet deep, but when my husband put a layer of sand down under the liner, he built it up so much that the deepest part is not about 2 1/2 feet. I was NOT happy at all when I found that out! :'(

Last summer was our first with the pond up and running, and we had a terrible time trying to get the water regulated. I lost about 36 baby koi - about 6 batches of 6 fish at a time. Granted, I got them at PetSmart, and I've been reading that those aren't the healthiest, but I couldn't afford the better ones, and wasn't sure they would live anyway.

In September, I made a last attempt at 4 more babies from PetSmart. The problem was that the water was so full of algae and murky that once I put any fish in the pond, they were never seen again... until we found them dead. So, when I was cleaning out all the leaves in March and April, I found 1 dead koi. Didn't see the other 3, but assumed they had died too. Fast forward to May, and the pond turned pea soup GREEN! My husband couldn't take it, and since we didn't see any fish, he put more Algae Fix in, and added a bit extra for good measure. The next day, all 3 koi came up gasping for air! We were shocked that they had survived the winter here in zone 6, because again, the pond wasn't deep enough, and it had frozen completely over with no air holes or heater.

The next day 1 was found dead in the skimmer, and we haven't seen the other 2 since! The water was still pea soup green, so I put some barley straw in - it started doing it's trick, but not enough for my husband, so he bought a UV light which he installed last Thursday. I couldn't wait, and bought 2 different batches of 8 comet feeder fish after having seen a friends very large comets in her pond.

They have been doing well so far, and the water is clearing up. Only 1 comet was found dead in the skimmer in 2 weeks - that is an accomplishment for us! They are even coming up to the surface to eat now - so exciting! But we still have not seen the 2 koi. The only place they can really hide, is underneath a 1/2 clay pot that my husband smoothed out and put in the bottom, but when he went in the pond yesterday and turned it over, there weren't any fish there. NO koi, which were now about 5 inches long. So do we assume that some animal got to them? I have seen a heron flying high over the pond, and actually saw one by the side of the pond one time last fall. I haven't seen one by the pond at all this year though. I'm guessing it could have come when we weren't home? It's so weird not knowing where those fish are!

Anywho... I am really enjoying reading everyone's posts here, and the pictures are terrific! I have a few questions that I am going to post in the appropriate forums, and am looking forward to all of your advice.

Hi Lynne, good to see you here.

This is a great board.

Guess what!!??! Today was the day I was going to divide the lily, and wouldn't you know, IT HAD A BUD COMING OUT!! It's the first one for me, and this lily! I took the lily out anyway, and the rhizome just split in my hand, so I think it had detached from the other end anyway. I quickly replanted it as far to the right in the pot as I could get it, and put it back in the pond. Now I just hope the bloom still comes up! I think it will. I took the other end, and put it in a new container garden--24" pot, with some other plants in it. I'll post some pix in a few days when it's settled.

I'm spent though, it was so hot today. I'm baking a loaf of homemade sourdough bread, and then I'm going to bed. (had to bake it tonight-had the sponge in the fridge for 2 days)

Oh yeah, and we need pix-how's that bud/bloom coming?

Esther · « **Reply #4 on:** July 07, 2009, 06:06:44 AM »

Welcome Lynne. Yup, sometimes it takes a while to "get it down" and have the water clear and the fish live.

By the way, my pond in Grand Rapids, Michigan goes from 24" to 30". Is 10 X 13 and I have no problems with pea soup algae, just string algae. I do use tiny bits of Algae Fix from time to time if I see the water starting to go green but always err on the side of not as much as is called for. For me, filtration, both mechanical and biological is the answer. I don't like using chemicals, even though I do at times, so will put extra mesh baskets of filter media in the drops of the waterfall. Granted it is a pain but I don't like green water. I don't think your fish are dying from algae either. If you see the fish gasping for air, get oxygen to them as quickly as possible with partial water changes, bubblers etc.

For winter, you'll need something to keep a hole open in the ice, deicer, bubbler or something if you expect your fish to make it through the winter. Yes, if your fish are small and particularly goldfish may make it without but when they get bigger, and when the winters are harsh, good luck. Last winter 10 of my Koi died, ranging in size from 22" and 4 pounds to not much smaller. I had a clean pond and a hole in the ice but something was still lacking. These fish ranged from 7 years to 5.

ThornyGardener · « **Reply #5 on:** July 07, 2009, 07:11:07 AM »

You haven't mentioned your filtration system. Pea soup is a sign that filter is not cycled -- everyone goes through this at first and many go through it in spring when filter is starting up. It does clear, but a UV light is a godsend. (AlgaeFix is dangerous, IMO. If you insist on using it, please make sure you have lots of air diffusers/stones as algae dying that rapidly depletes oxygen and fouls the water.) Fish love algae and pea soup, but not if it is becasue the water is bad. Remember the old adage "Take care of the water and the fish will take care of themselves."

I am also in z6. Shallow is fine when your fish are small. Then one particularly nasty February the ice will get thicker than usual (and I once measured 10" thick ice), the koi have grown to 18" long with deep bellies and the big ones will be dead just under or on top of the ice. I get tearful calls from friends who had rolled their eyes at me for years when I suggested they were heading for trouble with shallow ponds. You must get a deicer, though, for gas exchange.

Because of the lack of depth, look into building a winter cover with boards, greenhouse film and plastic lattice to distribute snow weight, or a hoophouse greenhouse. It will keep the temps up a bit by trapping in earth's heat and more importantly shutting out the wind which cools the surface. (But still use a deicer just in case.)

The other concern with shallow ponds are the other extreme -- the water can get very hot in AUgust. An extra aIr stone/diffuser will be needed. Tumbling rocky vs straight sheet drop waterfalls do not provide as much oxygen as you might think.

Predators: raccoons also eat fish if they can wade in. They come at night so you'll just have to look for tracks in mud they leave a fin or two around too. Herons stab and eat the whole fish. They can clean out a pond in an eye blink. They usually arrive very early morning. Straight sides deter both of these critters.

lorraine1960 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 07, 2009, 09:37:01 AM »

WELCOME.... you will find any and everything your heart desires on this site,the people are the best.....any questions just ask and post post post........we all love pics....

lorraine

jw · « **Reply #7 on:** July 07, 2009, 02:26:38 PM »

Hi Lynne NY, Welcome and yes we are picture crazy here

I found if I put in lots of plants it really cuts down on the algae green water mess and oh also adding clay kitty litter in a sock tied off near the waterfall helped me immensely

. I guess it helps eat up the excess nutrients in the pond water. Now I can actually see the fish

. Janice

LynneNY · « **Reply #8 on:** July 07, 2009, 07:20:56 PM »

Thanks for the great welcome all!

Esther - I'm so sorry to hear that you lost all those koi. I would have been very upset!

jw - I haven't heard of putting kitty litter in a sock by the waterfall - interesting idea. So far, the UV lights my husband installed last Thursday seem to be working to clear up the water. It's not perfectly clear yet, but we're getting there.

Some of you have asked for pictures. I tried to get some decent ones today, but it's hard to fit the pond and gardens all into the camera frame. These were the best I could do today.

This is from the upstairs window through the screen this morning.

And this is from the driveway this afternoon.

These pictures really don't do it justice though. Someday I hope to get a much better camera.

tinkster · « **Reply #9 on:** July 07, 2009, 08:12:26 PM »

what a beautiful pond!

Plant coverage will help tons with the pea soup.

tink

Lynne22 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 08, 2009, 06:37:15 AM »

Lynne, the pond looks great! What you need are about 3 umbrella palms in the pond, and I know just where you can get them!

I think they would overwinter fine, as I have read stories about people who left them in the pond during winter, and they either continued to grow, or they came back in the spring. I can see that pond with 3 scattered around inside, but not on the ledges. Since I always try things out before I actually do them, I put this composite together in PSP for you to see.(it's rough, but you get the idea)

If you don't have any place to get them, or if they are too expensive, I can send you 3 umbrella tops, which you would then float until they send out roots. Once they do that, I cut off the umbrella part, then pot them up. If the water is warm, they can root very quickly. I wait until the roots are about 3" long before I pot them. They send up new shoots as they do that. It might take a year or so for them to get any size to them, but they can get 6-7' tall, and it would really help with shading the pond. Hence, help to control the algae as well. They would need to be at the water level, as in, the pot would have to be brought up to the water level.(water level with the top of the pot) But you could stack bricks, or use milk crates-or whatever. I have my big one just in the ground, no bog, and it's been there for 3 years now. I have started several in the pond, and once the water is warm, they go like crazy.

If you're not sure about the wintering thing, you could always haul them out, and put them near a sunny/bright window, in a dish of water, or should I say a tub.

LynneNY · « **Reply #11 on:** July 08, 2009, 07:12:32 AM »

Thanks Lynne and Tink!

There has always been a problem getting coverage over the water. The water hyacinths do not like to grow in this pond! They always turn yellow and die pretty soon after I place them in the water. I have to have them in a tethered hoop or they all end up right in front of the skimmer because of the flow from the waterfall, rendering it useless! This is the longest I've been able to keep some (2 weeks - WOW!), but they are turning yellow. The kid at the pond store said that his at home are yellow and that it was a different type of water hyacinth - I highly doubt that - they started out nice and dark green as they should be!

As for umbrella plants - I LOVE what you did with that picture - thanks so much - you are very creative! I would LOVE to grow some in there, but I just do not have a speck of room to overwinter it indoors. I just researched it and they are only hardy to zone 8, and we are in zone 6 here. I have to take in many of my outdoor plants - I am a gardener at heart. And now will also have to take in the 2 pots of dwarf papyrus that are doing well. AND I have 6 indoor cats that just LOVE to eat eat EAT all my plants!

I learned that one roots the papyrus the same way you described rooting the umbrella plant. It is so cool!

I have a baby plant growing on my deck now that has sent out lots of new leaves with "flowers" on them, and am rooting 2 more. So much fun!

I can't keep water lettuce - it just yellows and browns almost immediately for lack of shade. I am psyched that my water lilies are starting to do well, and went in search of more yesterday, but unfortunately the prices are not in our budget right now - especially after just having bought 2 UV lights for the skimmer.

Last year I bought a solid hula hoop to help put some shade in the pond - I of course had to tether that too. It had Dora the Explorer on one side, but I put that side down - sorry but I am not a Dora fan!

I'm not floating it this year - really didn't like the way it looked and it did get grungy looking after last summer.

Any other suggestions as to putting more cover on the water?

Lynne22 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 08, 2009, 07:39:39 AM »

I'd love to have water lettuce, or hyacinth, but they are both banned here in FL. Stupid jerks. Like I'm going to throw them out in a waterway.

The fines are really high too, if you get caught with them.

Oh, and as for the shade thing; get some patio umbrellas, or even cheaper-beach umbrellas that you can stick in the dirt-or a pot in the pond, and just place them where you could get the most coverage. Most K-marts, Walgreens, etc. have them and they aren't too expensive-like $15- or so. Some of them are different colors, while others are solid colors.

You could also just get some air mattresses, for now. You would have to teather them though. Heck, for that matter, you could get get some sheets of styrofoam, cover them with weed blocker, so they'd be black, or you could cover them with vinyl table cloths, in a pattern of your choosing. Would they be beautiful-probably not, but they'd get the job done for now...

jw · « **Reply #13 on:** July 08, 2009, 10:38:23 AM »

LynneNY if you ever try the kitty litter be sure you get the stuff that says Bentonite (clay) for the ingredients. No perfumes etc. You can buy it at Wal-mart for $2.59 for 25lb bag called Special Kitty.......can't beat that

. I made myself a hula hoop type of floater out of black tubing and sewed fiberglass screen door material around it with strong fish line to keep the fish out and the plants in. Plants are just duckweed, salvinia, azolla and some parrtots feather and anacharis. Provides shade and doesn't stand out so much as it's all black. I love your pond. You've done a great job and I think w/ more plants you will conquer the green. I bought some underwater oxygenating plants like Anacharis and they are helping along with the Parrots Feather that floats. I like Lynne22's pics that she did for you. Maybe there are some hardier tall plants that will overwinter for you in the pond for shade in the summer

. I don't know what they would be but maybe someone else will know

.

tranquility · « **Reply #14 on:** July 08, 2009, 12:51:45 PM »

Welcome to AP....on the last remaining koi...I bet they are hiding between folds in the liner...small koi are notorious for doing that....then one day they will just seem to pop out of no where...small koi tend to hide alot because they know they are on the bottom of the food chain...as Thornygardner mentioned Algae fix can be dangerous...I can't tell you the number of customers who have told me that had a fish loss over using it...it must be used exactly as the bottle says and it does deplete the water of O2 so lots of oxygen is needed when using the product....I stay away from all the magic potions in a bottle...the only thing I would use in the pond is natural things like barley and clay....of course also make sure to use declor any time you do a water change of 15% or more....
Lawanna

LynneNY · « **Reply #15 on:** July 08, 2009, 06:11:21 PM »

Lynne - I wanted to get a nice market umbrella and put it on the sunnier side but my husband said no to that. So he's not going to let me float anything like an air mattress, or put umbrellas into the pond either. But thanks for the suggestions.

The combination of barley straw and the new UV lights is definitely clearing up the water. We could see down to the bottom today in great detail - YEA!

I could even see some fish from the second story window this morning - it's about time!

jw - I like your idea of making a plant hoop - where did you get the black tubing? We actually already have screening, though I'm not sure I am patient enough to sew it around tubing with fishline. (also have that already).

Thanks for the welcome, tranquility. My husband tried to look in the folds of the liner for the fish but didn't see any. They aren't as small as when I got them last year - last time we did see them they were about 5-6 inches, so I would think that part of them would stick out of the folds?

As for Algae Fix... I have told my husband... NO MORE CHEMICALS! His problem is... he is a scientist - a hydrogeologist! So he is interested in the quick fix here. I do think that now that he got the UV lights he will hopefully stay away from the chemicals. He did watch the comets come to eat their dinner tonight and enjoyed that, so I'm thinking he wouldn't want to hurt them with more "fixes", ya know?

landey1230 · « **Reply #16 on:** July 08, 2009, 09:04:42 PM »

Oh my. Very nice pond. Welcome to AP.

Lynne22 · « **Reply #17 on:** July 09, 2009, 05:29:22 AM »

Quote from: LynneNY on July 08, 2009, 06:11:21 PM

Lynne - I wanted to get a nice market umbrella and put it on the sunnier side but my husband said no to that. So he's not going to let me float anything like an air mattress, or put umbrellas into the pond either. But thanks for the suggestions.

LOL, which is why I fired my last husband many years ago. I like to do what I want, when I want.

(yeah, it's all about me....

)

Too bad, I think a couple of umbrellas would look really nice out there....even a cantilevered one.

Julles · « **Reply #18 on:** July 09, 2009, 06:08:21 AM »

welcome! There's always room for another Lynne here!

Your pond is huge, and I love the waterfall. You're lucky to have such a big pond right from the start - most of us have to start small and expand, expand, and then expand again, over the years. But I'm sorry you've had such an ordeal getting everything into balance. Sometime soon, though, you will be able to enjoy the pond and the fish and the plants.

I can't grow hyacinth or lettuce in my pond, either. Lilies do fine, but the others whither and yellow and die - My theory is that the water is too clean, because they live in little tubs and buckets with no filtration just fine.

Try putting a milk crate or a strawberry jar pot into the pond, to give the fish some place to hide. That way, they may be able to escape the heron's next visit.

I have put shade over my pond, and eliminated green water, by stringing wires from the fence to the house, and then getting an evergreen vine to grow on them. Of course, my pond is only 3' wide, and it's close to the house ... you'd have to figure some other way to get wires over your very large pond.

The other thing that helped was getting a good filter. Proper filtration, cleaned regularly, should help with your water quality problem. Also, maybe your area has particularly hard or soft water ??

LynneNY · « **Reply #19 on:** July 09, 2009, 08:29:15 AM »

Thanks for the welcome, Landey and Julles!

Lynne - I get just what you mean about doing what you want when you want!!!

Julles - don't be too impressed with the size of this pond! I actually started out with a bathtub pond for 2 years before we did this one!!! YEP - my husband had to renovate the kids' bathroom because it leaked down through our kitchen ceiling, so when he took out the bathtub I asked if we could turn it into a pond! I had been drooling for a pond for years, and thought that wouldn't be too much work. I LOVED that little pond - I was actually able to keep fish alive much easier in that, than the current pond.

Here is a picture of the bathtub pond when we first put it in.
I did the rocks around this one, my husband did all the rocks around the larger current one.

As it was getting established

And in August doing well

The ONLY reason I now have this nicer pond, is that when we had to connect to the sewer system 2 1/2 years ago, we asked the contractor if he would dig out a hole for a pond while he had the tractor here. He was SUCH a nice guy - said he had done that a few other times for other people - no problem. He spent a good 45 minutes digging it out to our specifications, and would not accept a penny for his time or labor! He even called us the next day to see if the sewer etc was working ok. Guys like that are gemstones!

I LOVE the idea of putting a strawberry pot in the pond - never thought of that - thanks! We did buy some large black PVC pipe at Home Depot the other day - one has 2 curves to it for fishy fun, and the other is a 5 foot long piece that my husband will cut into 2 pieces so there are more places to hide.

jw · « **Reply #20 on:** July 09, 2009, 11:00:02 AM »

LynneNY, you can buy the black tubing at Lowes or Home Depot. It's used for sprinkler system setups. You connect it together w/ plastic connectors you can also buy there. If I had to do over again I would buy larger tubing like maybe 3" size so fish can't slide over and get stuck in there. I had to put another hoop together and slide it under the old one as to make it higher around the sides to keep them from doing that. I am happy to say it is working and you cannot see it under there

.

LynneNY · « **Reply #21 on:** July 10, 2009, 04:48:57 PM »

Thanks for the info, jw!
I'm glad you were able to figure out a way to make yours work better so your fish don't get caught up in it.

We had a dead comet sucked to the side of the bottome drain this morning. My husband had put some chicken wire around the outside of it because I had been losing a bunch of fish through the drain last summer, and it's worked well so far. But I was sad to lose one down there. The others all seem to be doing ok. They come and eat off the surface now, and know what my knocking on the rocks means - FOOD!

jw · « **Reply #22 on:** July 11, 2009, 09:38:42 AM »

Sorry you lost one of your fish. That always makes me so sad when they die.
The 3" size I was talking about was for the tubing so as to keep it up higher out of the water so the fish couldn't jump in there and mess up everything. They like it in there cause of all the floating plants but they reek holy terror on everything. The screen size is just your really teeny screen door fiberglass stuff. I got tired of trying to catch them in there and get them out so that's why I put the other hoop underneath the old one to raise it up so it would float higher. Now they can't get over it..........ha, ha

I did discover that I have about 3 little tiny baby fish in there tho but they can stay in there and grow bigger so the other fish can't eat them and they won't toss all the plants out of the ring like the bigger ones

.

LynneNY · « **Reply #23 on:** July 11, 2009, 10:16:42 AM »

That is soooooooooo cool about the baby fish, jw!

We lost 2 more this morning so now we are down to 12 from 16. There is another one acting strange - at first he was staying with his head under one of the lily pads all morning. Both times when my husband and I nudged him with the net he scooted down into the water. But now he is kinda skimming along on the surface of the water. I expect that he won't make it through the day. I posted about the pipe we put in the pond yesterday, but haven't gotten any answers about it yet.

jw · « **Reply #24 on:** July 11, 2009, 10:35:06 AM »

I can't imagine the pvc pipe would cause those problems unless it is glued somehow together w/ toxic glue. Did you wash it? I think lots of people here use it and have no problems. Did you try draining some of the water out and adding a bit of fresh? Maybe it is lacking in oxygen and they need more circulation............I haven't a clue. I lost half my fish last winter from not cleaning the gunk out of the pond and then it got so cold here I think they didn't have enough oxygen to breath with all that gunk and ice on the top of the water. I did leave a hole for them by leaving the waterfall running all the time but I shoulda cleaned out all that muck on the bottom in the fall. I hate it when I do something wrong and then it's my fault when the poor things die :'(. So sorry you are having this problem and don't know how to fix it. Maybe they just caught a disease or something and it's just a coincidence that you happened to put the pvc in. I had a sick fish in my pond looking all lazy acting and not moving much so I put some Melafix in and it helped along w/ putting some fresh water in after tx.