water lily crown rot???

[tinkster]

A friend was telling me they knew someone that lost a whole entire collection of water lilies to crown rot.  I never heard of that.  What is it and how does it effect al the lilies in your pond.

 Dont remember anyone on this forum ever mentioning lilies getting crown rot and passing it to all their lilies.  Is it true lilies get this and if so what do you do to prevent it.  It sure would make me think more about adding lilies. 

tink

[PondmaninAL]

Well Tink, I've heard of it but never seen it first hand. I do know that Victorias get it as they get older and are not treated properly. My thoughts: if ya ain't got it, don't worry about it.

 

[turtlemike]

The thought of crown rot terrifies me.  So much that I bought a 60 dollar bottle of truban  fungicide that is approved to kill phytophthora. I treat most plants I get and quarantine everything.  Especially if it comes from Perry's.
  Truban is hard on plants and some lilies are more sensitive than others. I have killed a couple like Perry's super yellow. That is why I need a super yellow. It came from Perry's and I think I over did it out of paranoia and left it in the truban for to long.  Truban is systemic, it penetrates the whole plant.  It usually kills the mature leaves but leaves the smaller leaves alone. Of course I'm probably using to much for to long because I lack instructions on proper dosage and methods.  so I over kill. As long as the plant doesn't completely die I'm happy.
   I have WAY more truban than I will EVER need because I couldn't get a smaller bottle. So if anybody needs some I'm sure we can work out a trade or something.   
 
    If somebody out there like Craig for instance knows about proper dosage and administration of truban for lilies I would really appreciate being enlightened on this subject.

[Joyce]

There are certain people, like Chicken Little, that claim the sky is falling all the time. 
They make these claims about crown rot, blaming other people, especially certain growers,
but never blaming their own atrocious growing methods. 

If ALL your water lilies all die of crown rot, it doesn't happen all at once, or overnight.
If it happens, it means you haven't been very observant, and you haven't been growing them properly.
If you're out there every day pondside, you can spot it before it turns into a problem.

Tink, your chances of this happening to you are close to nil. 

Don't let some old fogey make you believe that the sky is falling. 
Besides, if this 'friend' knows this 'someone' who lost an entire collection to crown rot, ask them to back up what they say.
Ask them who it was, and how long it took. 

[tinkster]

thanks....that makes me feel better.  I was pretty sure when they were telling me that there was more to it since I hadnt heard it mentioned here happening to anyone.  I have had a few lilies that get like yellow/white round spots on the leaves almost like you have dropped clorox on them.  I always pull them out soon as I see it. 

Mike if we had talked about this the other day I might have bought some of your extra stuffie off of ya but least I know on the rare chance I should get an infestation I can get to your place quick and bring some home.  Was trying to remember if you had sunfire, haunting beauty, myra  and fairy skirt in both ponds  in case something would happen to them.  Better get them boxed up and send to me for safe keeping

 and in case anybody is wondering neither me nor bunny begged mike for his own liliess, we just took what he offered... ... and it was the hardest thing I have had to NOT DO.   

tink

[Vickie]

I do believe crown rot does happen. It has happened to some people. I have never had it that I know of. I think I would know if I had it. But just because I haven't does not mean it does not happen. And if it did happen to me you bet I would be warning other people so it would not happen to them.

[Joyce]

Never said it didn't happen.

[Craig]

In the last en years or so, I have raised a whole lot of Victoria and never seen a single case of crown rot in them.  I've had numerous discussions with Kit Knotts on problems that crop up when growing Vics....and never once has crown rot been mentioned.  I'd have to say that crown rot is of no concern to anyone growing a Vic.  I'd appreciate hearing any substantiated evidence to the contrary.

From what I've read crown rot seems to affect hardy lilies and I have never heard of a single verified case in tropicals.

But to answer your question Mike, when I have treated tubers coming in from overseas and especially from Africa, Madagascar and Sri Lanka, I used Banrot, which is Truban with the broad spectrum fungicide thiophanate added.  It is a wettable powder and I mix 113.5 g in a tank with 20 gal of water.  I allow the tubers to soak for five minutes....and you need to stir pretty constantly to keep the chemical from settling out.  After five minutes ( or so ) I rinsed in running water and started planting.  The 'recipe' for the dip was given to me by a professional plant specialist and seemed to work 100% of the time....or at least I never lost tubers to crown rot or other fungi.

But in all honestly....I wouldn't go mailing the stuff out and if you use it often, you might want to pick up some Subdue to use in rotation to prevent the build up of resistance in phytophthora.  Misuse and overuse without rotating are the two biggest causes of chemical resistance in fungus.

[PondmaninAL]

Well, excuse me for being wrong. I must have misread it or something. I'm not perfect like some people.

[turtlemike]

Thank you Craig , I think I've been leaving them in the solution to long.  I use only a few drops in about 20 gallons of water and I let the water sit and allow the petroleum distillate carrier to evaporate for a few hours before putting the lilies in to soak.  I think the carrier is as toxic to the leaves as the truban is maybe. The powdered form you use is probably better since it has no petroleum in it.   I've been leaving the lilies in the solution for an hour or more and I've been thinking that's to long.
  Oh and also thank you for answering another question I had about whether tropicals where susceptible to crown rot.
   Why do you recommend that I not mail any out ? Are there any restrictions against mailing it ?
 
  And Joyce I don't really think that you were referring to me as being one of the people that blame certain growers because I mentioned Perry's. I have never gotten a plant from Perry's that had any disease at all and do not want people to think that I have. I have great respect for Perry and love his plants and will order more from them.   I just know that Perry has written many times about loosing plants to crown rot so I know It has occured in his collection.   I'm sure I may be extra worried about it.  But people like me with a huge collection that are getting lots of new plants all the time have much more to worry about than some one like Tink who have very few new plants coming into their collection.

   I don't know much about crown rot but what I have read about phytophthora in soil says that it is that once you have it in your soil you will always have it because the spores are VERY durable and last basically forever.   This makes me think that if you get one infected plant in your collection even if you remove it promptly the spores could still be living in the soil and water in your pond and move on to other susceptible plants in your collection.  Any opinions Craig ?

[Joyce]

Nope, wasn't referring to you Mike...glad you realized that.   

On the other hand, seems like some certain people can not handle constructive criticism at all. 
Makes you understand why they're in the mess they're in.    

No one is perfect....ANYone can grasp that concept.   

But we all can learn, instead of getting angry cuz we're not being told what we want to hear.
I guess it's a maturity level issue. Most people appreciate constructive criticism and learn from it. 

[greenthumbnails]

Tink-Its interesting that you mention it.  When I first started ponding last year my first lily mysteriosly died...still don't know why, but I am much more successful with ponding this year, so I don't worry about it anymore.  But, at that time I had asked something or other about lily crown rot too.  I went on this mad hunt for Subdue and could not find it anywhwere, other than one online source that wanted something like $200 for it    So, I settled for PP (Potassium Permanganate) instead which was much more affordable.  However, I don't think its for the specific fungus that causes crown rot, I think its used as a general "cootie killer".  I read about it on some other forum.  Lawanna uses it to treat her plants before shipping from what I remember.  I have had the stuff for a year and have been too lazy to mix the batch cause I don't know what to do with the rest after I'm done using it for however long it takes. 

Craig - where did you get your Subdue?

[tranquility]

GTN-I do use PP for disinfecting but, it only kills bugs and parasites from plants...I'm pretty sure it doesn't kill Lily crown rot...I've never seen LCR first hand either...
Lawanna

[Craig]

I'll try again.<g>

Problem is Mike,  comparing the powder to the liquid is kind of the apple/orange thing, in that I have no idea on the percent active ingredient in yours.  The Banrot is 40% active ingredient, but of that only 15% is the etridiazole, so I'm using about 17 g of Truban in 20 gal of water.  And yes, I believe there are restrictions against moving pesticides through the mail, but I'm not 100% sure.

My own opinion, and it is just an opinion, is that phytophthora is most likely present everywhere.  I've read that some are hosted not only in the soil. but also by plants.  They have identified in excess of 120 plants as hosts of P. ramorum.  Point is, it is there but I don't believe it takes hold until a plant is stressed or weakened.  I also believe the crown rot is declared to be the cause of death for a whole lot of lilies by default, since it is about the only fungal disease mentioned in most books. 

I read a study done in Canada a few years back in which public gardens, master gardeners, growers...plant professionals in general...where asked to send diseased plants in to the respective national path labs for one year.  Of all the infected Nymphaea sent in, only one was found to be infected with phytophthora.  So while I'm aware, I am not overly concerned; but then I do very little with hardy lilies and my tropical collection is separate from them and it is essentially a closed collection.

I get Subdue Maxx from either Helena Chemical or ProSource, I forget at the moment...but 200 bucks is about right for a quart.  But then 0.5 oz will make 50 gal of drench and I use it on marginal plants way more than lilies.  I can't recall the last time I treated lily tubers.

[PondmaninAL]

Nope, wasn't referring to you Mike...glad you realized that.   

On the other hand, seems like some certain people can not handle constructive criticism at all. 
Makes you understand why they're in the mess they're in.    

No one is perfect....ANYone can grasp that concept.   

But we all can learn, instead of getting angry cuz we're not being told what we want to hear.
I guess it's a maturity level issue. Most people appreciate constructive criticism and learn from it. 

What "mess" might you be referring to, Joyce? The one that I got laid off because the company was reducing their manufacturing personnel until they could transfer all the products and shut down completely during a bad economic period?

[CoolShades]

Crown Rot does exisit, but I agree people tend to blame every dead lily on crown rot.  I agree with Craig, I am not aware of Tropical lilies getting crown rot. I think a lot of people make the mistake and say a tropical gets crown rot when it has been exposed to temperatures below freezing and gets soft and mushey (very technical term I know).  The best documented case is at Kew gardens over in the UK, but this was a one time event.  I also have read that Phyto is actually everwhere, pots, plants, etc. and the chance of Crown rot is exaserbated by not thouroughly washing out used containers.  In various readings crown rot seems to be more susceptable to specific species in particular the reds and some of the yellow hardies.  While I have a lot of respect for Perry, I think he overstates crown rot in his highly used book, which tends to scare a lot of people.

In general I found in mine and my folks hands that water lilies (especially tropicals) are very hardy (clearly not cold hardy) and grow like weeds.  So Tink enjoy your beautiful pond and don't fret except for that snake I see crawling into your pond

[tinkster]

rofl gary.. your mean!!! just when I made my first attempt in 3 years to go in my ponds without chest waders 

tink