Drama Of The Day...

[Kittyzee]

This is serious business and the sooner the kids realize the kind of crime they committed, the better off we'll all be.  These kids didn't commit a petty crime--real guns and violence were involved.  They need to realize that if they were 18, they'd be going to "big boy" prison. 

[Esther]

The father said WHAT??? How does he dare?? Noone made up what happened. You and many others saw them, have pictures of them etc. Sputter, sputter again.

[Bullfrog]

They will more than likely get community service washing firetrucks and police cars to work off the amount of the damages but I don't know if the business recoups any of that. The parents may not have that kind of money and it may seriously strap them trying to pay for their kids crimes in todays economy. They should have to work and sign off every paycheck to the business until it is paid back.

[Joyce]

Esther, I'm sputtering too. 

We get to choose what community service they do. 

Last time we were vandalized,  some teenagers took their cars out on out newly seeded sod fields and did donuts all over 2 week old grass seedlings.
They also ran over as many small shrubs and trees they could in the nursery next to the sod field, then made a bonfire and camped out.
Beer cans, evidence of drugs and used condoms all around the fire. 

Those kids got to dig, by hand using a shovel, a 500 long trench alongside the sod field, parallel to the road, where they accessed it from the road.
Was 5' wide and 2.5' deep and 6 of them finished it in one week, average temps high 80s.  They were not allowed to leave until it passed inspection.
I got to do that and took pix, made them dig out certain areas wider and deeper. 

This time they're going to be cleaning out the kennels at the animal shelter if I have my way.
They live a stones throw from it. 

[Brian]

Joyce,
Until reading your last post, my thought for restitution was 'Chain Gang'.  chain them all together so that they were forced to stay and to the work rather than run away at their first opportunity.  I wouln't hold those delinquents past that!!  Anyway, here's my current thoughts.  They should work at the nursury to make restitution to the nursury and to the worker's personal property AND once that is paid off, work at the animal shelter (I'm assuming it is run by the county or city) to reimburse the tax payers of your area for the costs incurred by the police etc.

When those other teens vandalized the sod field, obviously you or some other staff had to babysit them to keep them from running off or doing a half-a$$ed job (you said you had them re-do a section)  That is also a cost to the nursery because you're not able to do your primary job.  I too have little tolerance for these types of kids.  As others have mentioned, there has to be sense of right and wrong built into us..that's called our conscience.  Even if not taught from our parents or even our school as some think that's where it should be taught...seeing on the news or other media that theft, armed robbery, murder etc is wrong for the simple fact that the police are after these criminals. 

I'm glad you all get to choose their punishment....don't go easy on them and I'm positive you won't!!!

[Julles]

I think the punishment should be tied to the crime, i.e., working at the nursery. 

In the course of that, the kids may have the opportunity to talk to you employees (especially the "Guats") and learn to know and like and respect them.  Less likely to harm you again if they know you as people, not trucks and bushes.  I do volunteer clean-up work at an old abandoned cemetery, and they have parolee kids come help sometimes, and part of the pastor's goal is for the kids to see honest, hard-working people who earn their living the correct way, and hopefully establish role models for the kids; someone the kids want to emmulate. 

There is a judge in our area who makes people stand on street corners wearing a sandwich board stating the crimes they are convicted of.  Public humiliation, especially when people can come up and talk to them, gets the point across better than washing trucks, for instance, in a private place.

[Bullfrog]

School starts soon and if these heatherns are going to school it is really going to be a memorable experience to spend your weekends working while everyone else is having fun. Julles, I agree that a positive influence can get through to some kids, it's worth a try. I actually served as an altar boy while I was doing time in reform school and the Father there was a very positive influence on me.

[Joyce]

I'm REALLY done with the religion.
That was deliberate.
Keep it out of my topics.
Thanks for the jab AGAIN. 


Julles, I agree.

[Bullfrog]

I'm REALLY done with the religion.
That was deliberate.
Keep it out of my topics.
Thanks for the jab AGAIN. 


Julles, I agree.

So we now can't even mention positive influences like Julles and I did? She was following the thread and mentioned a pastor, I mentioned one that was also a positive influence. Nobody is dicussing religion or jabbing you Joyce. Perhaps Sean and Jerry can install an "ignore" option here so you and I don't see each others remarks as you are taking all of mine out of context and imagine that I am somehow "jabbing" you when I'm not.

[Joyce]

Riiiiight.....   

[kitfoxdrvr]

Unreal, Joyce.  Too much stress...

[Esther]

I am totally mystified. Guess I'm too simple.

[Bullfrog]

I really mean't no malice, no "jabbing" was intended. I was just responding spontaneously as was Julles (which was ignored) I was once a youth that was in trouble with the law (like those in your post) and was incarcerated for 11 months at the tender age of 14. The Texas Reform School that I was sent to was the recepticle for all of the juveniles who had commited crimes. The brutality of the guards far exceeded that of my fellow inmates, these were dirt farmers with no education on how to deal with kids with emotional problems. Their answer was to come to work with a chip on their shoulder and pick out one 14 year old kid to vent their frustration on and beat you with their fists. The other violent inmates were another matter to deal with.

In the midst of this horrible place was one man who actually listened and offered a positive influence and some guidance. He just happened to be a priest. I never mean't to introduce religion into this thread and don't actually think that I did, I didn't dwell on it. It was pertinent to the progression of the thread. I don't know what else to do or say Joyce, I have publicly apologized to you if I unknowingly hurt your feelings somehow and asked for a cease fire, I am not jabbing or sniping you in any way regardless of what you think. You pounce on my every post and twist my words into something that I did not say or mean. This hate that you harbor for me really is a detriment to this forum. Again, if you have a personal problem with me, PM me and tell me why, if I'm wrong I will apologize sincerely in public forum but in the meantime can we all just stand on our own merit and not take cheap shots anymore?

[Esther]

My word BF, are 14 year old kids actually incarcerated? Or was that then and they don't do it any more? But still, mercy, so sad that you and other kids that age are so far out of control to end up like that. Still though, I guess if it can turn them around at that age, all the better. I've wondered about the people in prison and ones who have gone straight for a long time and then done something so stupid and end up in jail. Then I wonder about the ones who just never seem to get "it" through their heads that they need to follow rules and laws. I guess it's so hard for me to imagine because of my upbringing and "influence" that was always around me. Grandpa and Grandma lived across the street with my dad's 4 much younger brothers. My parents were always there, maybe my dad was out on the back 40 and mother in the garden, but there. Also, I suppose my personality was such as you could shake your finger at me and I'd behave. Yet I grew up to be strong minded and not afraid to speak my mind. But I also knew when not to push the envelope and learned where I stopped and the other guy started.

 Last winter I had a long talk with my 14 year old grandson who was pushing Grandpa and Grandma's buttons a little while we were taking care of them while Braeden was being hospitalized. We talked a lot about rules and how to make the decision about following them and who is the boss in what situations and where and when he makes the rules. I told him flat out, "If you and Grandma get into a real scuffle, Ian, I will just warn you. You will not win." I had learned that he seemed to have a problem with females in authority and gave his mother a rough time. Unfortunately, she had taught him that she wouldn't follow through with her threats when he got older. She would just "tell daddy" when he came home. And that didn't seem to work out very well. But any way, one of the hardest things we have to learn in life is where we  (our authority, whether we have any and how much) stop and the other begins. Yah, in our estimation, we may think we are right but we can be right until the cows come home but if the other guy has more authority and thinks you are wrong---you better start paddling. We use these dance steps all our lives.

[Bullfrog]

I don't know about now but when I was 12 my father died and I was left with a lot of anger. Why were we so poor? Why did the other kids look down on me because I was dark skinned? Hard questions for such a young mind to ponder but it left a lot of scars on me and somehow made me a bigger man. Reform school was a truly cruel enviornment and as I said, those that had our charge had deep issues themseleve's and no formal training on how to deal with emotionally disturburbed kids. I was beaten by a man in his 40's when I was just a kid of 14 as were my cellmates. It was everyday reality, we would wonder who would be the scapegoat that dat and were just thankful that it wasn't us. Finally, after years of abuse and invesitgation the Gatesville State Reform School for Boys was closed down under the "allegations" of abuse.

As I said, we were very poor. My mother somehow finally mustered up the monety to come and visit me. I had gotten into a fight in school and was not allowed to talk. I simply asked for some milk at the table and was beaten into a bloody pulp from the dorm man. That was the one day that my mother got to come and visit me. She saw me with my bloody shirt and asked what happened. I told her the truth and was beaten later, after she left for telling her.Thank God this place no longer exsists.

[fishlipsmcgee]

][/I'm REALLY done with the religion.
That was deliberate.
Keep it out of my topics.
Thanks for the jab AGAIN

What???  Let's stir the pot and make trouble where there is none... AGAIN

[Bullfrog]

][/I'm REALLY done with the religion.
That was deliberate.
Keep it out of my topics.
Thanks for the jab AGAIN

What???  Let's stir the pot and make trouble where there is none... AGAIN

Let's just let it go and let bygones be bygones. No jabbing was intended.

[Bullfrog]

Just another random hydrocodone thought but I have been where these kids are now, for whatever reason and Julles rang a bell. Sure, you can punish them, make them dig the ditch a little deeper and wider and make them shovel dog chit, but will they really take anything with them from this except than bitterness? If there is one person there who in the duration of their punishment that says something that they take with them and makes a real difference in their lives, isn't this so much better than just spanking them?

I am glad that there was one man who tried to make me see that there was a price to pay in more than just dollars and cents. That when I hurt people that had to be corrected, not just paid back in money and time. The lessons that he taught me sunk in a lot more than the beatings that I endured at the hands of his coworkers. His words landed a lot more deeply and stuck more than their blows did, all the blood that they drew only made me hate them more. It did not correct anything.

[Esther]

Spanking at that age doesn't do much I don't think. But having them work off their debt will go a long way hopefully.

[Joyce]

Thanks for the voice of reason Esther.
Although I believe they all got a spanking anyway, according to what the cops told me.
And when I was a kid, knowing that a spanking would be the result of bad behavior, kept me a good kid.
A spanking is just that, a spanking, not a beating, and not child abuse, So you can't compare the two.
That would be laughable.
So on top of the spanking, they will be working it off too. At the animal shelter.
Works for me.
 

[kitfoxdrvr]

Let's not talk about spanking-too many bad memories of my dad and a belt... ;-)

Steve

[Mikey]

Our daughter never needed a spanking when she was young.  Just a simple look from mom or dad was all it took.  Our son on the other hand......well that was a different story...

At a young age I too was out of control.  Mom was an alcoholic.  Dad had abandoned the family which resulted in mom living with some other man who took us in.  I routinely ditched school.  Me and another kid first burglarized and then vandalized someone's home.  The County then stepped in and removed us from our mom and put her in an institution.  I don't know the details.  My older brother and I went into a facility for dependent children.  Love and a healthy dose of discipline to my rear end straightened me out.....

[Jerry]

I was raised by an uncle. he would take off his belt and make it pop.  He never ever hit me ever.
Sure made me jump a lot.

[Joyce]

Amen to that Mikey! 
Jamie knows that look too! 
She has had a spanking now and then, maybe once a year.
Nothing for well over a year now, because we can take her phone away from her, or computer time. 
That's scarier than a spanking! 

Steve, a belt is a whipping. 
I don't believe in whippings or anything that can leave permanent damage. 
Sorry you had to deal with that!
My brother got the belt JUST once, and that was for stealing something, I can't even remember. 

I think the current youth situation is proof that corporal punishment does work,
cuz we never had crap like this happening all the time when we were kids.
Nowadays, people aren't surprised when they hear about it.

[Julles]

Well, this thread is proof that a whole LOT of people do stupid things when they're young, and eventually grow up to be good citizens.  Like I said before, the brain in areas of reason and cause-and-effect isn't fully developed until about age 25.

Back to some of Bull Frogs' points, one reason that helping at the cemetery is good for the parolee kids, besides seeing "regular" people as role models, is that they are doing something constructive and helpful to society.  Simply hauling tree limbs in 100* heat is "punishment."  But doing the same hot, hard work with the goal of helping to turn decrepit land into a beautiful park that will be home to wildlife, offer recreation and rest to humans, and provide information about the history of freed slaves (that's who's buried there), that is doing something helpful and positive - and we all need to feel useful and helpful and like we're contributing to something.  That is a good goal, and something the kids can be proud of doing.

Another beneficial element would be to get the kids involved in more than the present physical labor.  If they could help prepare the cemetery for the future - help plan the walkways, choose the plants, try to get grants and funding from government and private sources - all this would help minimize the chances of commiting further crimes, becase they would be invested in seeing something positive come to fruition, plus learning delayed gratification, becaue this project will take years to realize. 

Bull Frog - it's not just Juvvie Hall that's "cruel and unusual."  Most, IMO, prisons and jails, are run by egotistical, power-hungry people with small minds, bulies who love to have authority over people, and love to have the authority to take any excuse to push people around. The more they do it, the harsher their actions become.  It's proven that many (not all  of them, of course) have the same personality profiles as criminals.  If they didn't have jobs where they got to leagally beat or intimidate or push around other people, they might well end up hurting people outside the system.  Only, when they are HIRED to do it, it's called a job.  When they do it OUTSIDE the system, it's called "assault."

Many of you have heard of the Stanford Exeriment, where ordinary people were in an experiment playing roles of either prisoner or keeper.  Within a very short time, the "guards' " behavior became mean, then cruel, then outright dangerous.  They had to end the experiment before the planned finish, due to escalating violence, along with great psychological damage to the "prisoners". 

Everyone should know about this phenomenon of human nature.  Here area couple of links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

http://www.metafilter.com/54771/Stanford-Prison-Experiment-The-Video

I have a friend who was in the infamous Florida prison so well known for excessive violence in the '70's.  It took a long fight (I mean, decades!) but they were finally able to gain public awareness, and then public caring,* then get the place shut down.

*Oddly enough, most people tend to look the other way when it comes to prison conditions.  They say, "If they're in jail, they deserve what they get."  But they have no idea how cruel or inhumane the conditions really are.  And being convicted of a crime doen'st mean the person ceases to be a human being, and deserves - beatings, denial of medical care, unsanitary conditions, solitary confinement in total darkness, etc.  It's so easy for people on the outside to look the other way.  People in prison are just that - locked away and unable to help themselves, and unable to get the attention of people who could help.  People on the outside find it easier to just ignore the problem, hoping it will go away.  Or they do what Hitler did to the Jews, and what the U.S. did to the Viet Cong, by "dehumanizing" them - calling them Kikes or Gooks or whatever, and taking other steps to make them seem like lesser beings than we are, so it would seen OK to kill them. 

Back to prisons and jails - they become places of doing what's needed to survive.  There is virtually nothing there to help a person learn a trade, or learn life skills - negotiating, delayed gratfication, what to wear to a job interview, how to get up at 8:am every day, anger management, or an actual skill the person can practice once he gets out. 

Prison will, however, teach a person how to be a criminal, and will instill bitterness, anger, revenge, loss, and all the things that cause people to "go bad" in the first place.  Hell, we even make it hard for the person to get a job once he gets out, with background checks and the disinclination to hire anyone "with a record" even for stupid things, like my friend's teen daughter who went to jail for having a receipt for beer from a convenince store in her purse (no beer, mind you, just the receipt!).  Now, due to that, she can't get into college, and will have a hard time getting a job!!

Ahhh... I see BF and I have similar pet peeves.

End of rant - for now, anyway.   

[Bullfrog]

I agree Julles, little constructive comes out of being incarcerated. The particular dorm man that I mentioned was Mr. Web. He had an artificial leg and he had a huge chip on his shoulder. You could tell some mornings when he walked in the room that someone was going to get beat up before the morning was through. There was a small closet with no door, a brick mop room. He would shout out at you “Felipe! To the mop room.”

There was nowhere to go, it was very small. He would take his watch off while he wound himself up mentally and then begin by slapping you in the face hard. He then would start with his fists. At this point it was OK to try and cover your face but eventually he’d get you in the stomach making you double over. Then he would knee you in the face with his prosthesis and it was hard as a rock.

When he felt like you had enough he would then make you duck walk polishing the floor with a mesh clothes bag. The State said it was OK to stand in front of the boy and bend him over holding his head in one hand. They then could hit you in the center of your back with a flat palm three times but these were some big men and small boys. They could literally drive you to your knees with every blow.

Some got creative, there was a decorative board running along the wall about 2 feet from the floor. They would make you kneel three tiles away from the wall, that’s three feet. Then lean forward and place your forehead against the board and put your arms behind your back. All of your weight was on your forehead and you would begin to shake all over. When they finally let you up, you had a crease in your forehead for quite a while. Not all of them were like this but by and large they were all violent and stepped across the line when it came to punishment.

Julles makes a lot of good points, not only are they doing something constructive but they are also learning a trade, a skill that they can use later in life. Also the point of interacting with normal people goes a long way. Some of them have no home life and no father figure coupled with a working mother. Just having a positive role model can be a great influence on a young mind. Simply doing time serves nobody any good.

Now the hardened criminals (adults) should be made to work, not just lay around in a cell watching TV or working out. They should be growing their own vegetables and making a lot of their own goods as well as things that can be sold to offset the cost of housing them and their medical care. As far gone as a kid may seem to be, a lot of that is just an act in front of their buddies to appear tough. They are still young and can be taught to become productive members of society.

[Joyce]

I believe prison shouldn't be a country club.
That's the whole point. 

I like the way Sheriff Joe Arpaio runs his jail.
Every jail should run this way! 

[Jerry]

yep they don't ever want to return. He has pink uniforms for them too.

[Bullfrog]

I like the way he does things too, when he put in a tent city and they complained about the heat he told them "It's 110 in Iraq today and our boys are over there."

[Johns]

My random thoughts on the young criminals above and spanking.  A true "spanking" never hurt anybody, except for their bottoms and pride and went a long way towards keeping me out of trouble.  But the "kids" above are guilty of a criminal act, which if persued properly would make them guilty of a felony.  No, a spanking will do them no good, but a rap with a ball peen hammer right between the eyes might just do the trick.  First, ya gotta get their attention!  Oh and that father who decided to lie about his kids whereabouts should get two raps.